pipelineaudio
Active member
Let me guess, for the 400th time PRS will refuse to give ANY usable evidence, frequency testing, graphs, ABX testing, just his wooden xylophone schtick as usual. Jim Lil has this guy dead to rites
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
I'll see your Jim Lil and raise you Aaron from Warmoth:
Kidding aside, I don't know what the magic factor is, like I'm not confident saying wood type X always has Y and Z characteristics, but I have no doubt wood impacts the sound and sustain of a guitar in some way or another. Whether it's the material density, total volume of material, or shape in which it's constructed.
Just listen to an Ibanez RG with a pickguard and floyd route vs something more solid like a Les Paul with no weight relief and you can hear it for yourself.
Also, don't let Jim Lil fool you. That "strings between two desks" trick was entertaining, but it was also deceptive. You weren't hearing the vibration of just the strings with "zero wood" simply because there was no wood underneath the strings. You were hearing the strings effectively attached to the entire room, basically a giant slab of wood, metal, and concrete. Those are pretty dense and hard materials. There's also some video out there (which I can't find) that shows a guy who mounted a string on a steel I-beam and it sustained for like a minute.
Ultimately though, I agree with you that Paul with his salesman song and dance is a bit much and probably not nearly as solid as he'd have you believe.
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pipelineaudio
Active member
People always claim “you can hear it for yourself” but given the McGurk Effect and everything else we know about human anatomy, psychology and neurology we know that we cannot possibly even begin to count this as evidence. Instead every industry where facts matter has ways of actually testing, showing and proving claims. And the audio industry (especially industrial acoustics and telecommunications) is no exception. Note that these guys NEVER provide the type of evidence and measurements that would be asked of in any other discipline or even hobby.
If someone claims a species of wood has tonal characteristics, even acoustically, they can be safely completely and immediately ignored as that is just straight up dendrochronology denial on the order of flat earth claims.
If someone claims a species of wood has tonal characteristics, even acoustically, they can be safely completely and immediately ignored as that is just straight up dendrochronology denial on the order of flat earth claims.
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
I am not in any way qualified to make a commitment to it one way or another, but it seems to me that with electric guitars anyway, wood has little to do with what it sounds like.
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
Even with electric guitars, the way they ring out acoustically makes a difference, and the differences between guitars are obvious, at least with mine. Even acoustically, my PRS sounds different than my Jem, which sounds different than my strat, which sounds different than my telecaster. And if you play quietly enough that you can still hear the acoustic sound of your guitar, which is going to be pretty much any non-gigging scenario, then that acoustic sound is a factor in your perception.
I've returned solidbody electric guitars to the store because I hated the way they resonated acoustically. For me it usually happens with light weight guitars that have both pickguard and floyd rose routing. There's something about that construction that creates a buildup of low mids that present in a way I don't get along with, like there's a weird "kaw" or knock to the attack I find obnoxious, while that same knock is simply not there in guitars with less internal space carved out.
To say the the construction and material of a guitar doesn't make a difference means you're effectively saying that every single guitar ever made sounds acoustically identical, and pretty much anybody who has played more than one guitar can tell you that's simply not the case.
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thegame
Well-known member
If wood doesn’t matter then why do Les Pauls from the same run, same series, same batch even with close serial numbers vary so tremendously? What is the only variable there? Hint; it’s in the thread title.
P
PiggySmallz
Well-known member
Is it that wood doesnt matter or that wood varies greatly from slab to slab within the same species that it shouldn't matter? I dont know which side of the fence i fall on honestly but every custom 24 ive ever played sounds the same to me. They all have this upper mid bite. Plate bridge and trem its the same. Yet a gen 1 tremonti sounds incredibly different to a modern one with a trem, which to me says the trem is a bigger factor than the wood.
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
Maybe they are perceptible to you, at lower volumes or acoustically, but a Les Paul through a cranked Marshall is an unmistakably recognizable sound.
I know they like to say that a Rickenbacker 4001 sounds the way it does because of the wood, but you'll notice the unmistakable Rickenbacker bass sound is almost always the Hi-Gain bridge pickup. Spector claims the "Spector growl" is due to the shape of the body and the wood, but in reality every time they come up with a new preamp like the current Darkglass or the previous TonePump, they are designed to basically mimick the old Haz Lab pre from the Kramer and Woodstock era NS2s.
pipelineaudio
Active member
There's two different claims here:
one which after a moment's realization of putting the factors together should be easily and immediately hung out to rest - the claim that a species of wood has a sound. ANY google image search of tree rings should dispel that idea 100% and if you are still thinking it, now that's a matter of faith or feelings over facts
The other is that wood of different acoustic properties can have an effect on the electric output of an electric guitar. There's nothing stupid or implausible about this claim, just the fact that every single time it is tested in reality based conditions, it fails to have any measurable effect.
Look at all the posts above which can be summarized as "trust my ears bro!"
Meanwhile, the reality based community brings the evidence
The only peer reviewed paper that the tonewood believers have ever gotten thru peer review to my knowledge doesn't actually test the effect of wood on the electric output of the guitar. https://acoustics.ippt.pan.pl/index.php/aa/article/view/2949
"trust my ears bro" is not evidence. Ears attached to human brains are worse than useless at detecting, measuring and quantifying differences of this type
Worse than useless because confirmation bias will cement the errors into permanent belief
one which after a moment's realization of putting the factors together should be easily and immediately hung out to rest - the claim that a species of wood has a sound. ANY google image search of tree rings should dispel that idea 100% and if you are still thinking it, now that's a matter of faith or feelings over facts
The other is that wood of different acoustic properties can have an effect on the electric output of an electric guitar. There's nothing stupid or implausible about this claim, just the fact that every single time it is tested in reality based conditions, it fails to have any measurable effect.
Look at all the posts above which can be summarized as "trust my ears bro!"
Meanwhile, the reality based community brings the evidence
The only peer reviewed paper that the tonewood believers have ever gotten thru peer review to my knowledge doesn't actually test the effect of wood on the electric output of the guitar. https://acoustics.ippt.pan.pl/index.php/aa/article/view/2949
"trust my ears bro" is not evidence. Ears attached to human brains are worse than useless at detecting, measuring and quantifying differences of this type
Worse than useless because confirmation bias will cement the errors into permanent belief
RaceU4her
Well-known member
If all things are switched out.. pickups, pots, wiring, bridge, nut.. I’m no scientist but I would think variances in the electronics, magnets and density of metal would effect the tone more than what wood those things are screwed into, and the tests I’ve seen back that up
mctallica1
Well-known member
I have absolutely no technical competence when it comes to wood, but I can say that of the couple hundred guitars I have owned over the last 40 years or so, all of my favorites, and keepers have been mahogany or limba.
7704A
Well-known member
A nice book going over a lot of the research and measurements related to this is available for free here: https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/
TLDR (to best of my memory) : Body wood has no effect on sound. Necks have a small effect, but can't be picked out in a blind hearing test only a blind playing test. The variances guitarists observe are due to other less visually obvious differences than what sorta body wood it's made of.
Edit: It's fretboards that can't be picked out in a blind hearing test. Necks have an effect, but I forget the size beyond "it doesn't dominate".
TLDR (to best of my memory) : Body wood has no effect on sound. Necks have a small effect, but can't be picked out in a blind hearing test only a blind playing test. The variances guitarists observe are due to other less visually obvious differences than what sorta body wood it's made of.
Edit: It's fretboards that can't be picked out in a blind hearing test. Necks have an effect, but I forget the size beyond "it doesn't dominate".
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Tone Junkie
Well-known member
I think the older growth wood was denser. And when it dried out has more acoustic volume
These days trees cut down kiln dried and plastic finishes applied. They never fully dry out.
I’ve seen older 2x4’s that have lots of rings to them. These days maybe 1/4 compared to stuff 30-40 years ago.
Some guitar’s ring loud acoustically. Others don’t. It’s been my experience that if it’s loud acoustically it sounds better through an amp.
These days trees cut down kiln dried and plastic finishes applied. They never fully dry out.
I’ve seen older 2x4’s that have lots of rings to them. These days maybe 1/4 compared to stuff 30-40 years ago.
Some guitar’s ring loud acoustically. Others don’t. It’s been my experience that if it’s loud acoustically it sounds better through an amp.
thegame
Well-known member
C'mon crackpipeaudio, can you answer my question from post #7 without an oscilloscope?
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Well, as an old curmudgeon, I'll just say this...
Wood doesn't affect tone?
Wow.
Umm, ok.
LMAO
Wood doesn't affect tone?
Wow.
Umm, ok.
LMAO
H
Holy-diver
Well-known member
Well I would say that the warmoth video is pretty solid evidence that it does matter and the generally agreed tonal properties seem to be pretty accurate. The argument that tonewoods make no difference has always been retarded
7704A
Well-known member
Not quite... There are other things that can affect how the guitar sounds, even when all the hardware and electronics are swapped, which aren't accounted for. This comment over at TGP (sorry) addressing another purported tonewood proof video lists off some of them/the types of stuff, and the book I linked several posts ago has more details.
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...g-of-an-electric-guitar.2422406/post-36079140
BlueParfait
Well-known member
If it didn't make a different, then videos and articles "debunking" it wouldn't be shilled for by the "you will own nothing and eat bugs" algorithm
Very simple heuristics.
First they say the wood and construction didn't matter, it's the pickups
then they say pickups don't matter, it's the amp [YOU ARE HERE]
then they say the amps don't matter, it's the speakers
then they say the speakers don't matter because you can use FRFR with any speaker IRs instead
Watch it happen. They do it with everything else. Would be stupid if they don't do it with music
Very simple heuristics.
First they say the wood and construction didn't matter, it's the pickups
then they say pickups don't matter, it's the amp [YOU ARE HERE]
then they say the amps don't matter, it's the speakers
then they say the speakers don't matter because you can use FRFR with any speaker IRs instead
Watch it happen. They do it with everything else. Would be stupid if they don't do it with music
cobrahead1030
Well-known member
Over the years I’ve become a believer that how much wood affects guitar tone is highly dependent on how you amplify the signal.
If you’re running a super hot pickup, then boosting it into a dual rec with the gain cranked; you’re not going to hear a huge difference based on wood. You’ll get some variance in what’s brighter or darker, etc.
With a clean amp and lower output pickups, I tend to hear the difference a little more. I think a dirt pedal that adds a bit of volume boost & only a tiny bit of gain actually accentuates the differences.
The real of lower to mid gain tones & low to medium output pickups is where I notice it the most. I think at that point the signal is being amplified to the point that the differences become more apparent.
Most of us would admit that some amps expose certain factors in your tone & playing more than others, even at similar gain levels.
Across the board, I find that the louder you play (up to a certain point) the more the differences become audible. To me that makes perfect scene because any other electronic signal is going to yield different results based on how it’s amplified.
Truth be told, there’s probably a bit of placebo effect in place as well. With guitars being such a dynamic instrument, especially cranked through an amp; it likely becomes even more true when you believe it. If you think a certain wood & pickup combo brings out certain characteristics, you probably alter your playing just a little to bring out more of what you enjoy about it.
No “scientific” test will convince me that the wood has 0%’ influence on the sound. I’d guess it’s in the 5-10% range based on what rig you’re running. There will always be guys who swear it’s BS if they can’t see it on a chart too.
If you’re running a super hot pickup, then boosting it into a dual rec with the gain cranked; you’re not going to hear a huge difference based on wood. You’ll get some variance in what’s brighter or darker, etc.
With a clean amp and lower output pickups, I tend to hear the difference a little more. I think a dirt pedal that adds a bit of volume boost & only a tiny bit of gain actually accentuates the differences.
The real of lower to mid gain tones & low to medium output pickups is where I notice it the most. I think at that point the signal is being amplified to the point that the differences become more apparent.
Most of us would admit that some amps expose certain factors in your tone & playing more than others, even at similar gain levels.
Across the board, I find that the louder you play (up to a certain point) the more the differences become audible. To me that makes perfect scene because any other electronic signal is going to yield different results based on how it’s amplified.
Truth be told, there’s probably a bit of placebo effect in place as well. With guitars being such a dynamic instrument, especially cranked through an amp; it likely becomes even more true when you believe it. If you think a certain wood & pickup combo brings out certain characteristics, you probably alter your playing just a little to bring out more of what you enjoy about it.
No “scientific” test will convince me that the wood has 0%’ influence on the sound. I’d guess it’s in the 5-10% range based on what rig you’re running. There will always be guys who swear it’s BS if they can’t see it on a chart too.