Boogie C+ reissue oscillation - Youtube done right

ZEN Amps

ZEN Amps

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This guy has some good Mesa content, this is no exception.

The short version is that even with the reverb on 0:
- he can easily make it oscillate
- it doesn't when the reverb is disconnected

Poor layout - not user error or microphonic tubes - seems to be the issue. Gibson strikes again.

 
Randall Smith commented the IIC++ RI design is a big improvement over the IIC+ RI. Wondering if it oscillates? Let me try to find Randall's post about these two.
 
Here it is:
F

Post in thread 'Official Mesa IIC++ Reissue?'

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Really interesting. From Randall Smith himself.. it’s ironic too because the ++ manual is filled with informational notes warning that there will be more oscillations with the ++.

Those who got the mark regular iic+ and not the ++… I’d be disgruntled with this situation - unless you don’t want to play high gain metal. But I’m pretty sure most do
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it’s funny, after I posted that people started complaining about “people on the internet” complaining… Randall Smith isn’t just some random dork on the internet…

Jeez…. You know… some people on the internet…
 


At like 1:30 go through the oscillation thing on the ++. Noise but sure as shit doesn’t squeal like a pig.
 
I CAN make my C+ RI squeal but only at extreme settings 🤷‍♂️

Settings I wouldn’t come close to using. I do mainly use EMGs so maybe I don’t run my amps as hard as some are trying to do.
 
This is what I think is happening.

The miller capacitance of the first gain stage of the lead channel is reacting with the reverb wire inductance to the reverb tank of the shared triode of the same tube to make an oscillator.

The solution is very invasive to resolve - the reverb send and return need to be within the same envelope of the same tube and the lead first stage should be matched with a gain stage before the reverb is buffered and preferably one that is 180 out of phase.

The second solution is to convert the reverb buffer to balanced send/return but this is a lot of work and a bandaid.

Basically the problem is they poorly chose which triode stage goes with which tube and didn’t think about proper design choices for wiring in the reverb tank.
 
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Tone Monster said:
I CAN make my C+ RI squeal but only at extreme settings 🤷‍♂️

Settings I wouldn’t come close to using. I do mainly use EMGs so maybe I don’t run my amps as hard as some are trying to do.
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I think this is the big thing for me, I know people are making a big deal about this… but honestly if I was trying to run a c+ thattt hard I’d reach for many other amps before it.

Also, who the fuck uses an amps built in reverb? Lol
 
The funniest part to me is a good majority are Metallica tone chasers (hell I love that tone myself) and they try and use significantly more gain than Metallica ever used. I would say this particular amp in the video seems much more prone to it than others I've seen but then again I can't see what settings he was using on my tiny phone screen.
 
Brandonrz said:
Also, who the fuck uses an amps built in reverb? Lol
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Seriously. Built-in-amp spring reverb is such an antiquated, primitive thing. It also doesn’t go with anything high gain at all. I don’t even think of it as actual reverb simulation anymore really, but rather just some kind of vintage noise ambient effect. It’s almost in the same category to me as like a kind of band pass, AM Radio filter enshitification effect, just something that makes a guitar sound old and recorded by somebody who didn’t care what it sounded like.

Digital verb in the loop or in post is the only way to do it.

I say disconnect the IIC+’s spring box and throw it out.
 
Mike Oxhuge said:
The funniest part to me is a good majority are Metallica tone chasers (hell I love that tone myself) and they try and use significantly more gain than Metallica ever used. I would say this particular amp in the video seems much more prone to it than others I've seen but then again I can't see what settings he was using on my tiny phone screen.
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100%. Much less gain BUT more tracks. Fullness while retaining clarity.
 
its just odd to me seeing Randall still commenting and talking about his old company. i just dont understand why one would build a company as iconic as mesa was for how many decades, sell it to Gibson of all people, sticking around to get "fired" for what im gonna assume was being a lingering head butting pain in the ass, they then rerelease the amp apparently he didnt want to release.. i would definitely watch a documentary telling all sides of the story lol
 
RaceU4her said:
its just odd to me seeing Randall still commenting and talking about his old company. i just dont understand why one would build a company as iconic as mesa was for how many decades, sell it to Gibson of all people, sticking around to get "fired" for what im gonna assume was being a lingering head butting pain in the ass, they then rerelease the amp apparently he didnt want to release.. i would definitely watch a documentary telling all sides of the story lol
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In one of his videos, he said the IIC+ RI was his last project at Mesa. Considering the Mark I was his first amp and how beloved he is by so many guitar players, I'd say it's just a guy reminiscing about his entire life's work as a pioneering force in a cool industry for people interested in hearing it.

Randall selling the company is understandable. He knew he was going to retire and wanted to cash out. Gibson was probably the highest bidder. I hate that he sold to Gibson personally as they've driven so many other good companies into the ground because they're completely inept and full of shit, the only reason they're still around is because the guitars they make sell themselves despite the management's incompetence.

Gibson's shortsightedness is insane though. I totally agree that Randall was probably really annoying to Gibson's management, what with all his pesky concerns and interjections about "the quality of the product" he was probably doing instead of stampeding towards the highest possible profit margin next quarter even if it bankrupts the company the quarter after that. Only halfway kidding. To be honest if he was really all that concerned about legacy and the future of the company, he wouldn't have sold to Gibson in the first place.

I like his videos though. They give neat insights into a company that seemed really boutique, mysterious, and elusive so many years ago when I first heard of them when I was only starting to really get into playing.
 
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RaceU4her said:
its just odd to me seeing Randall still commenting and talking about his old company. i just dont understand why one would build a company as iconic as mesa was for how many decades, sell it to Gibson of all people, sticking around to get "fired" for what im gonna assume was being a lingering head butting pain in the ass, they then rerelease the amp apparently he didnt want to release.. i would definitely watch a documentary telling all sides of the story lol
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He mentioned in an older video a while back that he gave away ownership of the company to the various employees years ago, so I’m wondering if it wasn’t even his idea to sell up, but the employees getting together to get a payout for themselves. He might not have even been the majority shareholder at the end.

I have enjoyed his Mesa/amp-related videos though, it’s cool to hear the history on the how and why things were developed the way they are. From the guy in charge doing the designing rather than just rumors on forums or made up bs from ‘influencers’ looking for clicks.
 
@TheGreatGreen it’s always interesting to see this repetitive cycle of people selling their companies, staying on board and battling the new ownership, then getting sent off and being shocked about what happened.
 
Brandonrz said:
@TheGreatGreen it’s always interesting to see this repetitive cycle of people selling their companies, staying on board and battling the new ownership, then getting sent off and being shocked about what happened.
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ive seen this same scenario happen with a few businesses around here and it never made sense to me. i guess from Randalls point of few though, if he can cash out and still get paid on top of that to be a "consultant" or whatever term, which im sure to him means still running things, i guess that sounds good lol.
 
Brandonrz said:
@TheGreatGreen it’s always interesting to see this repetitive cycle of people selling their companies, staying on board and battling the new ownership, then getting sent off and being shocked about what happened.
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Yeah it's weird to see it keep happening. Everybody it happens to surely has the same access to all the stories we keep hearing, if not in even more detail, about how the exact same thing happens just about every time.

I wonder if it's just a case of ego. "I mean yeah it happened to all those other guys but come on, this is [company] and I'm me, and that's gotta mean something, right? I bet it'll be different this time I'm sure of it." **gets fired immediately after selling**
 
ZEN Amps said:
This guy has some good Mesa content, this is no exception.

The short version is that even with the reverb on 0:
- he can easily make it oscillate
- it doesn't when the reverb is disconnected

Poor layout - not user error or microphonic tubes - seems to be the issue. Gibson strikes again.

Click to expand...

That looks pretty definitive to me: he maxed out everything without the verb plugged in and got no squeal.
 
TheGreatGreen said:
Yeah it's weird to see it keep happening. Everybody it happens to surely has the same access to all the stories we keep hearing, if not in even more detail, about how the exact same thing happens just about every time.

I wonder if it's just a case of ego. "I mean yeah it happened to all those other guys but come on, this is [company] and I'm me, and that's gotta mean something, right? I bet it'll be different this time I'm sure of it." **gets fired immediately after selling**
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The other one that’s currently happening is moser guitars. Feel bad for Neal on that one.
 
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