Anyone else find modelers/sims uninspiring?

[GreatRedDragon]

I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to use the pedals with the FM9, I have an Axe FX3 and an FM3, on the FM I still have a pair of stereo send/returns and those are available for us on the input/output blocks. I do want to pick up an FM9 also, but I gotta let the toy savings get built back up.

Regarding the Helix. I have a helix floor. The Jason Sadites channel is a fantastic resource, but since I struggled with the Helix as much as I did, I never really dove into it like I have fractals. Jason in the earlier firmwares was using templates with pre configured EQs and shelving to give himself a starting point.

Lastly, I could be wrong but I believe you will run into DSP limits quicker on the Helix.

Right now I only have one loop available on my FM9. Output 1 sends to my headphones, Output 2 goes to my FRFRs with a compensory EQ curve dialed in. Output 3 currently goes to my amp, but when I set up my new GCX and pedal drawer it'll hit that instead. Pedals will be loops 1-4, Marshall preamp, any other preamps I get and the Marshall's power amp will be in loops, sent back to Input 3.

With the one loop I'm using I can't insert digital effects between my pedals and amp, or insert outboard effects post-IR. But I might be moving into an apartment soon, in which case the FRFRs will disappear.

 

[romanianreaper]

I h

I call it ear rape.

Have dibs on this as a band name....

 

[Techdeth]

I use axe efx for demos . But the feel and the sound still is too synthetic . Not where I want tone to go . In lessons I let kids try tube Amos and they hate the feel lol . Sad

 

[romanianreaper]

Yeah i think most of us have experienced that regardless if we like modellers or not.

I love having at least one tube amp. For gigs, using the Orange Super Crush and Orange Baby amps seems to fit me. It it a transistor amp but they have the four stages of gain and have figured out how to capture a great tone.

The Friedman IR-D with the Seymour Duncan Powerstage had been great too. I just don't know if i want to go back into that modelling arena again.

I think modelling as an amazing concept and sounds really good. I think the problem is:
- Too many options available
-Playing a polished tone versus a raw tone

I was watching a video where they were showing that having so many choices is detrimental to enjoying playing. You choose one of hundreds of amps, then tweak thousands of choices on damn near everything.

I still think these amps with a Fender sound, Marshall, and heavier is the way to go. Have a simple solution for people who just want to have a good live rig but don't want to adjust the tube glow emulator, etc.

 

[Sixstringflannel]

Had quite a few modelers / amp sims and landed on a RL + Amp. I did find my happy place with the modelers + 3rd party IR’s though. All they did was inspire me to get a Plexi and a 5150. The only plugin that I really inspired me to play different was the Neural Plini, but that was more ambient angelic bs and just a cool party trick EOD. I will say the Nano is a cool tool to run into a loop for FX, power amp, or just a general quick practice tool that sounds great - not to mention you can capture your own personal rig and sit on the couch noodling around. Collecting amp heads now feels like collecting classic cars and makes for a bad ass mid-life crisis.

 

[tjnx]

I use axe efx for demos . But the feel and the sound still is too synthetic . Not where I want tone to go . In lessons I let kids try tube Amos and they hate the feel lol . Sad

Probably because real amps keep you honest. If I play my digital stuff for a while its usually a wake up call when I fire the amp up. Subconsciously I think there's a lot of string noise, muting, dynamics etc that comes with playing a tube amp vs the digital stuff allows you to be a bit more sloppy.

That is sad though, I've noticed a trend with kids that they have so many quick options that if something like this reveals an area they need to work on they just drop it rather than take a hit to their ego.

 

[PiggySmallz]

I use axe efx for demos . But the feel and the sound still is too synthetic . Not where I want tone to go . In lessons I let kids try tube Amos and they hate the feel lol . Sad

I wonder if its because of how saturated and compressed amp sims are. Maybe its placebo but I feel like my mistakes are more exposed when im playing through tubes. The volume is also a lot louder though lol.

 

[Techdeth]

Probably because real amps keep you honest. If I play my digital stuff for a while its usually a wake up call when I fire the amp up. Subconsciously I think there's a lot of string noise, muting, dynamics etc that comes with playing a tube amp vs the digital stuff allows you to be a bit more sloppy.

That is sad though, I've noticed a trend with kids that they have so many quick options that if something like this reveals an area they need to work on they just drop it rather than take a hit to their ego.

My complaint is this : they don’t record what they actually sound like anymore . It’s all fake digital

 

[Techdeth]

I wonder if its because of how saturated and compressed amp sims are. Maybe its placebo but I feel like my mistakes are more exposed when im playing through tubes. The volume is also a lot louder though lol.

I agree .If I was touring I’d use my all tube rig for my tone . But I’d use a patch for soloing I made in axe efx . Id cheat . Just for soloing I’d have it in the ext loop for leads

 

[tjnx]

My complaint is this : they don’t record what they actually sound like anymore . It’s all fake digital

True! I think one of the many bad side effects of social media, pressure to be perfect. On a positive note, I have had kids come up and hover when trying big amps out at guitar center and it's great to see it click.

Keep doing what you're doing though. Its a great service and I would be in heaven if I was a kid trying out your amps. Hearing someone rip a Marshall at gc is what pushed me over the edge to get a guitar years ago.

I wonder if its because of how saturated and compressed amp sims are. Maybe its placebo but I feel like my mistakes are more exposed when im playing through tubes. The volume is also a lot louder though lol.

I think so. I had to practice silently for a while and while my amp is more difficult it makes me a better player. Easier to go amps to digital than the opposite.

 

[7704A]

I wonder if its because of how saturated and compressed amp sims are. Maybe its placebo but I feel like my mistakes are more exposed when im playing through tubes. The volume is also a lot louder though lol.

My experience is that SM57's mask your playing a bit. I've had a take that clearly sounds sloppy on a stereo condenser pair track but sounds fine on the 57 track. If all the modelers/sims are chasing the 57 sound 'cause it's the standard, maybe that's why you're catching more mistakes with an amp in the room.

 

[tjnx]

My experience is that SM57's mask your playing a bit. I've had a take that clearly sounds sloppy on a stereo condenser pair track but sounds fine on the 57 track. If all the modelers/sims are chasing the 57 sound 'cause it's the standard, maybe that's why you're catching more mistakes with an amp in the room.

You know what this is a good point. For my practice routine I have an 'analysis' day where I record what I'm working on to fix issues. I have a 57 and my interface has direct monitoring and I do find that when listening to the mic I have to adjust for that medium. Even though I have basically zero latency, there is a different kind of disconnect / unfamiliarity I have to adjust to.

So maybe practice for your environment is a good rule? Like if I was going to record I should practice monitoring through the mic weeks prior to the session. I'm gonna start doing this, its a good idea.

This, dynamics of the model / compression, and the monitoring speaker are probably a big part of it

 

[saxxamafone]

That’s why use heads with IRs if I need to be silent.

Still inspires me to play and gets those tubes cooking

 

[Shask]

I agree .If I was touring I’d use my all tube rig for my tone . But I’d use a patch for soloing I made in axe efx . Id cheat . Just for soloing I’d have it in the ext loop for leads

I have been finding modelers to have that smooth feel to them that makes leads easier, but have also been finding captures to have more of that immediate punchy feel more like an amp for rhythms.

 

[rsm]

I use axe efx for demos . But the feel and the sound still is too synthetic . Not where I want tone to go . In lessons I let kids try tube Amos and they hate the feel lol . Sad

I think it's all in what you're used to using. Early days of playing, after my initial phase of a cheap solid state amp as a kid, I was able to get tube amps. I learned how to use them, where to stand and what to do to get feedback and interplay with my guitars.

Then I went to racks; took years off, dusted off my old racks and got into a few new tube amps.

My first foray into modelers was the original Vox ToneLab, the table top version, and that phase ultimately led me to the Axe-FX Ultra when it was the top of their line.

What I learned along the way is that my approach to tube amps, hybrid racks (some mix of tube, analog, solid state, digital,...) and modelers, all required me to adjust my playing approach and style to get the most out of each.

If you approach digital modelers the same way as you approach tube amps, you will be disappointed in the experience.

IMO, many tube amp users are unable to make that adjustment to digital rigs, they give up before developing an approach / playing style, or just give up and go back to what they know (tube amps).

I think many younger players who have not learned how to work a tube amp effectively have the same issue in the opposite direction; they approach using a tube amp like they use modelers or plugins instead of learning / understanding the tube amp approach / playing style and are disappointed with the experience.

I'll add that many guitar players are luddites, which is why they continue to use guitars and amp technology based on 1950s / 1960s technology, and see that gear as the pinnacle. SMH

FWIW, keyboardists are like that too, with analog gear vs digital, but not nearly as bad as guitar players IME

 

[RaceU4her]

FWIW, keyboardists are like that too, with analog gear vs digital, but not nearly as bad as guitar players IME

its as much an argument with the beat makers as guitar players, there are still diehards using their old MPC's and 808's through whatever analog gear where other guys are like fuck that bullshit.

 

[rsm]

its as much an argument with the beat makers as guitar players, there are still diehards using their old MPC's and 808's through whatever analog gear where other guys are like fuck that bullshit.

40+ year old guitarists are still the "worst" gear curmudgeons.

but if you're successfully getting the sounds you want from the gear you prefer, whatever it is, what's the problem; or point in arguing about gear preferences?

it's all subjective

 

[ZEN Amps]

Uninspiring is almost always the first word that comes to mind when the analog vs digital debate arises.

It's undeniable modelers can work well for some players, but personally if inspiration is compromised - I'm out. It's the single most important criteria to me for work or play.

Fun is next. I want to enjoy the process for obvious reasons, plus the fact that it feeds back into the above. Everything else - cost, convenience, size etc - is way down the list of things I'll consider.

 

[rsm]

some old dogs can't learn new tricks.

just the way it is.

 

[ilikehats]

Uninspiring is almost always the first word that comes to mind when the analog vs digital debate arises.

It's undeniable modelers can work well for some players, but personally if inspiration is compromised - I'm out. It's the single most important criteria to me for work or play.

Fun is next. I want to enjoy the process for obvious reasons, plus the fact that it feeds back into the above. Everything else - cost, convenience, size etc - is way down the list of things I'll consider.

I think this is fair. We've all had gear (digital, analog, modeler, plugin whatever) that didn't do it for us. I had the Friedman IR-X for about 10 minutes before I knew it wasn't for me. I got along with the Nano Cortex instantly.

There's complexity in the modeler world too. Infinitely more factors that can influence the experience - latency, speakers/montiors, headphones, amp capture quality, capture options, IR quality, IR options. In general, a good head into a 4x12 is going to just work. This is personally part of the fun for me too. I enjoy tinkering and trying different things.

I still prefer cooking tubes and moving air, but I have my digital set up dialed well enough to inspire plenty of late practice sessions.