Bogner amp advice needed

[heinz_57]

I just got a 65amps Empire last weekend. It does Marshall tones like you described wanting…from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Here is a vid … this guy is playing through a bogner cab, so maybe it fits your criteria . It’s 20 watts of awesomeness.

 

[Old School Steve]

After hours of research and listening to all the great comments you guys have shared, here are my observations/notes:

TELOS
Pro's:

• Schizo voicing options offers wide tonal range
• Lots of gain variations; good high gain that stops short of saturation
• 40w/20w power settings for lower volume option

Con's:

• Average clean tones
• Single channel
• No reverb

ECSTASY 3534 (50w)
Pro's:

• 3 channels (dedicated clean + 2 gain options) for wider
• Reasonably good clean tones (a bit modern voiced)

Con's:

• No reverb
• The tones may be too polished/compressed (a glorious recording amp)

HELIOS
Pro's:

• 2 channels (clean, dirty)
• Dual inputs per channel (Plexi, hot) + bright switch for each channel
• 70's & 80's voice switch
• PTP hand wired
• 100w version has 30w power setting

Con's:

• Master presence control (both channels)
• No reverb
• Clean channel may not be the best as a pedal platform

GOLDFINGER SUPER LEAD
Pro's:

• Incredible clean tones (very spatial/natural)
• 2 channels
• 3 voice settings (68, 77, 81)
• Boost switch for each channel for further gain
• Reverb (glorious sounding)

Con's:

• Gain sound is not quite as rich as Helios (Gain switch might close the gap; or I could always use a gain pedal like an Ecstasy Red, etc. on clean channel if I needed more)

===========[ My Initial Conclusions ]==========

If I were to compare amps against the requirements I posted (I don't play a lot of pure clean tones), the Telos just edges the Helios due to diverse Schizo voicing. The Ecstasy is an incredibly capable amp, but I never play my Boogie Recto-verb amp anymore as I've moved on from scooped modern high gain. Thus, I fear that the Ecstasy is "more of the same" from similar amps (including old ENGLs that I've owned) and may lack the organic/raw feel of the other amps on the list.

Three things aspects of the GF SL are complicating the decision to go with the Telos:

1. Reverb (I've given my Shiva to my son and I'm selling my Mesa Recto-o-verb, so I need reverb); although I can solve this with a pedal
2. Lots of gain flexibility with the 3 different voicing options + gain boost; although I think the Telos Schizo offers more diverse gain voicing/tones
3. A truly beautiful clean channel could be useful in the future, should my playing style change; and it might offer an awesome pedal platform

Maybe I buy one of each to test and then sell the one I like least.

Feel free to comment.

 

[bubucci]

Golfinger is best 2 channel Bogner, just great transition between clean, pushed, crunch and plexi higain.
3534 is too modern and stiff for plexi/hendrix stuff, it didn't have typical Bogner low mid bloom like Helios or Goldfinger. Shiva is too muddy and almost impossible to match clean and dirty. With right cab with G12-65 or Scumback it is almost perfection.

 

[Old School Steve]

If you dont want metal, it isn't a bogner, but it is better made and has the perfect crunch imo. It is also low wattage, which I generally say with a sneer on my face...but I digress

Maz 18

Definitely a rich/sweet tone.

I'm wondering if this amp offers anything beyond this one tone?

 

[Geo]

If you dont want metal, it isn't a bogner, but it is better made and has the perfect crunch imo. It is also low wattage, which I generally say with a sneer on my face...but I digress

Maz 18

Sounds thin.

 

[Old School Steve]

I just got a 65amps Empire last weekend. It does Marshall tones like you described wanting…from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Here is a vid … this guy is playing through a bogner cab, so maybe it fits your criteria . It’s 20 watts of awesomeness.

Unfortunately, the single coil pickups in the video didn't offer me a good comparison point given that I use humbuckers and guitars with heavier body weight. I didn't hear anything in the video that sounds near as bold/spatial as the Bogners I'm considering. That's not to say the 65amps Empire isn't a great amp -- I'm just commenting that the video didn't show it off IMO.

 

[Jdub]

I didn't like the Atma and the JB45 is a bit too vintage for my liking. That leaves Ecstasy 3435 (50w version) vs. Helios 50w.

What do you like/dislike that puts one of these amps "over the top" as the best option?

Tha Atma is cool for what it is and because of it's size earned a recommendation but sonically I dont think it innerly the amp the others are. Helios 50 is great, but It is squarely in Marshall camp, as is the JB45 but it had more versatility. I have been on a tear lately buying and trying all of Renholds latest creation this year. I have had UU, Snorkler, JB45, and Ecstacy 50( the new one with the added voicing switches). If I had to pick one I would go with XTC 50 since I have several Marshalls already, so the Helios variants are more crossover. and the XTC 50 is all Bogner.. All the amps I mentioned are fantastic in my opinion, but of all of them I would suggest XTC 50. ( the new one)

 

[Jdub]

I didn't like the Atma and the JB45 is a bit too vintage for my liking. That leaves Ecstasy 3435 (50w version) vs. Helios 50w.

What do you like/dislike that puts one of these amps "over the top" as the best option?

I reread your initial post. If you really crave the Marshall voice, then Helios or Jb45 and of those, I would take the Jb45 for sure. The Jb45 has very powerful voicing switches for both the pre amp ad power amp so you can dial it to be vintage or not. I think these power voicing switches are largely overlooked or underestimated in their effectiveness of radically changing the whole feel of the amp. With the power section set in Modern setting,it really makes the amp sit somewhere between an XTC and a Marshall. It is capable of being much more modern, aggressive and tight than the Telos. That was a cool amp and the JB will do those tones, and a whole lot more. I should have kept it. But the XTC is killer too. I would like to have both and yo simple can't go wrong with either.

 

[heinz_57]

Here is a clip of the Empire with a Les Paul. Make sure to skip to the 3:54 minute mark the beginning is not about the amp…

 

[Old School Steve]

I reread your initial post. If you really crave the Marshall voice, then Helios or Jb45 and of those, I would take the Jb45 for sure. The Jb45 has very powerful voicing switches for both the pre amp ad power amp so you can dial it to be vintage or not. I think these power voicing switches are largely overlooked or underestimated in their effectiveness of radically changing the whole feel of the amp. With the power section set in Modern setting,it really makes the amp sit somewhere between an XTC and a Marshall. It is capable of being much more modern, aggressive and tight than the Telos. That was a cool amp and the JB will do those tones, and a whole lot more. I should have kept it. But the XTC is killer too. I would like to have both and yo simple can't go wrong with either.

Thanks for input as none of the JB45 YouTube videos that I have found highlight its higher gain capabilities.

Aside from the JB45, I think the Telos or Goldfinger Super Lead are the most interesting/cool. I just worry that the GF SL won’t bring enough bark/soul higher gain tones compared to the Telos. I love the Schizo dial (I got used to using it on my Panama), and the version in the Telos does even a better job of creating unique voicing.

 

[Jdub]

Thanks for input as none of the JB45 YouTube videos that I have found highlight its higher gain capabilities.

Aside from the JB45, I think the Telos or Goldfinger Super Lead are the most interesting/cool. I just worry that the GF SL won’t bring enough bark/soul higher gain tones compared to the Telos. I love the Schizo dial (I got used to using it on my Panama), and the version in the Telos does even a better job of creating unique voicing.

The Schizo switch on Telos does seem to have more pronounced voicing than the Jb45. maybe that is just because one has 5 or 6 clicks and the other is graduated, but I think you are right, Telos Schizo more of a chameleon effect and drastically alters the voice on each click. Tough call. Fortunately all your choices are good amps so can't go too far wrong. GLWYD!

 

[Jdub]

Thanks for input as none of the JB45 YouTube videos that I have found highlight its higher gain capabilities.

Aside from the JB45, I think the Telos or Goldfinger Super Lead are the most interesting/cool. I just worry that the GF SL won’t bring enough bark/soul higher gain tones compared to the Telos. I love the Schizo dial (I got used to using it on my Panama), and the version in the Telos does even a better job of creating unique voicing.

Skip to about 13 min mark. Good track at end that features a variety of tones includes some killer thick crunch and ripping lead tones! IMO. YMMV

 

[Old School Steve]

Thanks for sharing Doug's JB45 demo (I watched it).

I think my ears are telling me the following:

* JB45 - great versatility & good gain tones, but KT66 tubes are brighter and lacks the big/raw sound of the other Helios series heads (including the Telos). I wonder if I can achieve a more beefier gain sound by dialing in the tone via the voice switches, Schizo, etc.
* Goldfinger Super Lead - I am really intrigued with this amp, but the 6V6 gain sounds far too compressed in all 3 voicing modes (68, 77, 81) in a couple of the YouTube videos for the amp (I'm wondering if this was a mic issue, or how it sounds in real life).

The JB45 seems like an amp designed as a wide variation gain amp that happens to include a clean channel, whereas the Goldfinger has always been primarily a clean amp that later added gain (via the SL model). Between these two multi-channel amps, I'd choose the JB45, and then try compensate for the lack of bigger gain via a pedal through the clean channel (someone tell me if they this would be a good/bad idea).

If I stay true to my original requirements which is a willingness to sacrifice a pure clean channel, I come back to the Telos & Helios. To my ears, these two tube types offer the bigger/fuller sound I am after. However, if I can find a path to those tone AND get reverb and a clean channel (like the GF SL or JB45), that would be a huge bonus.

* Helios - killer tones, but all of its tones fall within a fairly narrow range of the same overall sound.
* Telos - the Schizo offers a wider tonal range because it changes both tone + compression pretty dramatically and I can see myself tapping into those various sounds regularly.

If I had never seen the Telos, the Helios would have probably be the amp for me -- but unfortunately, I can't "unsee/un-hear it" so I may be left chasing a rare piece of gear. Now that I've heard the JB45 it complicates things because if I can get (close) to a Helios/Telos gain sound by fiddling with the tonal controls (or with a pedal) -- it would offer the widest tonal option and bang for my buck.

The JB45's wide gain/tonal spectrum is really growing on me and it's a current production head, so I'm not having to hunt for a unicorn like a Telos.

Thoughts from JB45 owners?

 

[Jccobb2]

You absolutely don’t need a pedal for gain with the GF.



The guy that made this video has a series of them. Really shows off the amp.

 

[Old School Steve]

You absolutely don’t need a pedal for gain with the GF.



The guy that made this video has a series of them. Really shows off the amp.

Definitely has lots of gain options (I watched that video 3X, plus many others) but the gain compression sounded really noticeable (too much for my ears) - how would you describe it live?

This was actually my favorite demo video for the GF SL:

 

[Geo]

All Bogners sound the same to me, but that's not a bad thing.

 

[Jccobb2]

Those videos Blake did had the master way up, and the 6v6s squished pretty good. He was running into a load box and then an IR. That’s unuseably loud anywhere other than an arena. In real life it isn’t that compressed because the master isn’t almost topped out.

 

[Old School Steve]

Skip to about 13 min mark. Good track at end that features a variety of tones includes some killer thick crunch and ripping lead tones! IMO. YMMV

Doug is such an animal with effortless talent that he could make a 40-year old Peavey amp sound awesome.

But you are right that there are some good tones there.

 

[Old School Steve]

I just purchased a Helios JB45 and plan to use it as my 60's/70's gain amp (perhaps I can squeeze some 80's gain from it).

I'm going to patiently look for a Telos to deliver the wide range of 90's gain sounds. If you guys see a Telos come up for sale, let me know.

Steve

 

[Jdub]

Those videos Blake did had the master way up, and the 6v6s squished pretty good. He was running into a load box and then an IR. That’s unuseably loud anywhere other than an arena. In real life it isn’t that compressed because the master isn’t almost topped out.

Excellent point. I was wondering how Blake got it to sound like that. Makes sense.. That amp will rip your face off in the room with the master only on about 1/3 to 1/2 way up., The amp is quite bright, open, snarly and loud in the "expand/ loose " mode.