2 NADs are better than 1 (Mark IIC+ & Wizard Modern Classic)

[Tiger1016]

Going to try to make this somewhat quick so I can get some work done and start playing with my new toys.

I have had two new amp days within the past 3 weeks in the midst of a buying and selling binge.

1) Mesa Mark IIC+ HX (100 watt, non-simulclass, non-GEQ, X101 export transformer, 1984) – Thanks capnlee over on The Boogie Board/Grailtone
2) Wizard Modern Classic I MCI 100 watt (A Transformer, no effects loop, 2007) – Thanks @Bxlxaxkxe here on Rig Talk
3) But wait there’s more + Boss Waza Tube Amp Expander reactive load box to tame these beasts – Thanks JCC over on TGP

I am a very happy camper. It has been incredibly difficult to get work done these days as I am still working from home every day with all of this gear just staring me in the face with puppy dog eyes all day long.

FYI I have been happy with the results on working around the shortfall of not having the 5 band GEQ on my IIC+ by using EQs in the loop. Thanks to @GJgo here on Rig Talk and his YouTube videos with an EQ in the loop vs the built in ones one of his many many Mark amps. So far I have only used the 5 band Mark series EQ that is in the Axe FX III with great results, at least compared to all of the IIC+ patches I have in my Axe. Going to start experimenting with the parametric EQs next and will probably switch over to the Source Audio EQ2 soon. Going with the non-GEQ was a function of finding a very good unit at a great price while actually trying to chase Mark IIIs and getting frustrated that I could not find a single GEQ IIC+ to even consider for the ~2 months I spent looking.

The Wizard MCI just came in today. Have only had 20 minutes on it so far, so have a lot of exploring to do. Was originally gawking over a MCII and MTL II but new pricing and used availability and pricing was a barrier to entry. The one day Bxlxaxkxe (a.k.a. Blake Mansfield on YouTube) hit me up with a first look opportunity to buy his MCI at a fair price. So I decided to jump on it. Was worried about not having the gain control on the clean/rhythm channel and missing the Contour and Bright controls. But I knew that I would not lose money on this at the price I paid if I eventually felt compelled enough to upgrade down the road. I am instead going to be trying to use drives, boosts, and EQs to add additional flavor if needed and should be able to make that work great.

My amp/modeling evolution history so far has been;
1) Line 6 POD XT Live
2) Line 6 POD HD 500
3) Mesa Dual Rectifier Roadster
4) Fractal Axe Fx II
5) Mesa Mark V 90 Watt
6) Fractal Axe Fx III (still have)
7) IIC+ & MCI (NADs)
8) and soon to come, the Neural Quad Cortex

 

[SpiderWars]

Nice amps! I wouldn't get any work done either.

 

[slash57]

Wow, 2 very cool amps, have fun!
2 such big NADs within such a short time
Quite something, also goven how rare the amps are..

Also please share if you get some insight after a while on how to get a better 2C+ sound out of the Axe. I tried the Mark IV model and have the amp, but in the Axe the sound is much less warm somehow. Maybe the tubes in my amp are just old and shitty and that's why it sounds so much warmer Could never say something so controversial yet so brave in the fractal forum though..

 

[Tiger1016]

Wow, 2 very cool amps, have fun!
2 such big NADs within such a short time
Quite something, also goven how rare the amps are..

Also please share if you get some insight after a while on how to get a better 2C+ sound out of the Axe. I tried the Mark IV model and have the amp, but in the Axe the sound is much less warm somehow. Maybe the tubes in my amp are just old and shitty and that's why it sounds so much warmer

Thanks! Yeah it take patience, persistence, quick decision making, and luck to snag tough to find amps like at reasonable prices. I have no freaking idea how @GJgo pulls this off so frequently.

In the Axe III, I liked the C++ model over the C+. It is supposedly the same exact model just with different pot tapers, and for whatever reason I was able to consistently stumble across the tones I was chasing easier with the C++. I would also use the Ideal tab in the amp block for dialing in and to play around with the various voicing switches to taste. The Input Drive and Gain have have a big impact on tone and feel and it is all about playing around with those until you find what you are looking for in any particular tone, but I assume you already know this through using your IV. I am sure that you are well aware of how much of an impact the IR you use has on the tone and feel; it is huge. Don't forget to apply appropriate high and low cuts in the cab, and also give the impedance curve tweaking a try.

But a separate question is are you using a load box with your IV and running it into the Axe for a direct comparison? I ask because the impedance curve from a load box also has a big impact on the tone. I had been using a Two Notes Captor and it noticeably warmer than the Boss Waza TAE because the Captor's impedance curve is noticeably flatter than than a real curve or the TAE.

I had been just about exclusively using the Mark IV models in the Axe for the past 4 years. I liked it better than the lead channel in my V, and I had previously just kind of just ignored the IIC+ model. But I decided that I wanted to give the Neural Quad Cortex a try, but it "only" has a IIC+ model and no IV. I was thinking I was going to buy a IV because of this, but also started trying out the IIC+ model in the Axe to see if I could "get by." I fell in love immediately and felt silly for missing out on it for the 6 years that I have owned an Axe. This got me into looking heavily at Mark IIIs as well and was trying to chase one of those when I stumbled across the deal on the IIC+ that I just could not pass up. Thing is I gravitate toward tones that have more bite and aggression, so that is kind of the opposite of the warm tones that is sounds like you might be chasing.

 

[RedB4Black]

Congrats on the new amps! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the. After you’ve had a chance to really put them they the paces. Definitely give that Wizard a little volume... it’s a beast.

 

[311boogieman]

WOW
Killer haul there.
Have fun!

 

[Racerxrated]

With those 2 amps you'll pretty much cover all rock-metal tones imaginable. When I had a MCI it took a boost pedal nicely as long as I left the pull boost off. The C+ loves a boost of any kind.
Look out for a good rack parametric like a TC 1140 or Audio Arts 4100. The Empress is decent but those rack units take it to another level.

Congrats!

 

[Exo-metal]

Pq3 kills as well, always has?

 

[Tiger1016]

With those 2 amps you'll pretty much cover all rock-metal tones imaginable. When I had a MCI it took a boost pedal nicely as long as I left the pull boost off. The C+ loves a boost of any kind.
Look out for a good rack parametric like a TC 1140 or Audio Arts 4100. The Empress is decent but those rack units take it to another level.

Congrats!

Thanks!

The only boost I have on hand right now is a Airis Savage Drive, which just came in yesterday. I can say that I am a big fan so far using it with the IIC+ on the lead channel with every single voicing switch pulled and the bass "much higher" than usual (i.e. on 2 or 3 instead of 1 or less).

Regarding the rack parametric EQs, I have seen a handful of references to the TC and AA. I have not done enough research to understand what the secret sauce might be with analog EQs like this compared to digital alternatives which can be more powerful and easier to use, but there is kind of a cult following for them. Do the analogue EQs color the sound in a pleasant way, do some of the digital EQs supposedly have some tone suck issues, is it that many people prefer to have a physical knob to turn and simplified options, or is it all of the above or something else?

The Source Audio EQ2 pedal is by far the most powerful and also the most convenient EQ I have ever seen (excluding pro level studio mixing and mastering gear), and it seems to be really easy to use too. It turns into a parametric with 10 fully customizable bands when you connect its USB to the computer or mobile app based editors, you can adjust the frequency and Q of each of the 10 bands in addition to its gain, which you control with sliders like a graphic EQ and it even shows you the EQ line graph visual, peaking and shelving options are on the first and last band, input and out gain controls, input high pass filter, the ability to run two different EQs at the same time for its two independent inputs and outputs, 128 MIDI controllable presets, MIDI in and through, expression pedal tweakability, and even a noise gate and tuner. This thing is even more powerful than the EQs in the Axe Fx III and easier to use and the same goes for any of the rack based EQs, but I do kind of still wonder what is special about the coveted rack mount units.

 

[braintheory]

With those 2 amps you'll pretty much cover all rock-metal tones imaginable. When I had a MCI it took a boost pedal nicely as long as I left the pull boost off. The C+ loves a boost of any kind.
Look out for a good rack parametric like a TC 1140 or Audio Arts 4100. The Empress is decent but those rack units take it to another level.

Congrats!

I liked the Empress a lot until I got the PQ3 and then the Empress sounded like a cheap toy. If I had to choose, the 1140 is my overall favorite, PQ3 is 2nd for me and then Audio Arts, but they’re all great, just depends on what one is looking for

1140 is I think the most versatile and most clarity, PQ3 has the most warmth and nice midrange quality, while the 4100 can get the tightest, but sounds a bit more clinical and compressed than the other 2. I’m keeping all 3 if that says anything

With my Wizard MTL and ‘79 JMP I found the 1140 didn’t gel as well with those amps for some reason. The PQ3 and 4100 worked much better with those amps, but with most of my other amps (espcecially the c+) the 1140 is my overall favorite

 

[Tiger1016]

With those 2 amps you'll pretty much cover all rock-metal tones imaginable. When I had a MCI it took a boost pedal nicely as long as I left the pull boost off. The C+ loves a boost of any kind.
Look out for a good rack parametric like a TC 1140 or Audio Arts 4100. The Empress is decent but those rack units take it to another level.

Congrats!

I liked the Empress a lot until I got the PQ3 and then the Empress sounded like a cheap toy. If I had to choose, the 1140 is my overall favorite, PQ3 is 2nd for me and then Audio Arts, but they’re all great, just depends on what one is looking for

1140 is I think the most versatile and most clarity, PQ3 has the most warmth and nice midrange quality, while the 4100 can get the tightest, but sounds a bit more clinical and compressed than the other 2. I’m keeping all 3 if that says anything

Thanks for the input! Very helpful. Will start looking into these more now.

 

[braintheory]

With those 2 amps you'll pretty much cover all rock-metal tones imaginable. When I had a MCI it took a boost pedal nicely as long as I left the pull boost off. The C+ loves a boost of any kind.
Look out for a good rack parametric like a TC 1140 or Audio Arts 4100. The Empress is decent but those rack units take it to another level.

Congrats!

I liked the Empress a lot until I got the PQ3 and then the Empress sounded like a cheap toy. If I had to choose, the 1140 is my overall favorite, PQ3 is 2nd for me and then Audio Arts, but they’re all great, just depends on what one is looking for

1140 is I think the most versatile and most clarity, PQ3 has the most warmth and nice midrange quality, while the 4100 can get the tightest, but sounds a bit more clinical and compressed than the other 2. I’m keeping all 3 if that says anything

Thanks for the input! Very helpful. Will start looking into these more now.

No problem. I also just added above to my post that with my Wizard MTL the 1140 didn’t seem to sound as good as my PQ3, but maybe it would be different with your MC

 

[WizardSouth-JP]

nice score

 

[PBGas]

What a great setup! You literally have everything covered!

Nicely done!

 

[slash57]

In the Axe III, I liked the C++ model over the C+. It is supposedly the same exact model just with different pot tapers, and for whatever reason I was able to consistently stumble across the tones I was chasing easier with the C++. I would also use the Ideal tab in the amp block for dialing in and to play around with the various voicing switches to taste. The Input Drive and Gain have have a big impact on tone and feel and it is all about playing around with those until you find what you are looking for in any particular tone, but I assume you already know this through using your IV. I am sure that you are well aware of how much of an impact the IR you use has on the tone and feel; it is huge. Don't forget to apply appropriate high and low cuts in the cab, and also give the impedance curve tweaking a try.

But a separate question is are you using a load box with your IV and running it into the Axe for a direct comparison? I ask because the impedance curve from a load box also has a big impact on the tone. I had been using a Two Notes Captor and it noticeably warmer than the Boss Waza TAE because the Captor's impedance curve is noticeably flatter than than a real curve or the TAE.

I had been just about exclusively using the Mark IV models in the Axe for the past 4 years. I liked it better than the lead channel in my V, and I had previously just kind of just ignored the IIC+ model. But I decided that I wanted to give the Neural Quad Cortex a try, but it "only" has a IIC+ model and no IV. I was thinking I was going to buy a IV because of this, but also started trying out the IIC+ model in the Axe to see if I could "get by." I fell in love immediately and felt silly for missing out on it for the 6 years that I have owned an Axe. This got me into looking heavily at Mark IIIs as well and was trying to chase one of those when I stumbled across the deal on the IIC+ that I just could not pass up. Thing is I gravitate toward tones that have more bite and aggression, so that is kind of the opposite of the warm tones that is sounds like you might be chasing.

Thanks, I think maybe I just have to spend more time on it, or maybe try to tone match my amp. Yeah I'm using either the Suhr RL or the Torpedo Reload, I tested both with the same IR of course.
I think I have to A/B test more, or maybe try to EQ match in the DAW, maybe that will help a bit to dial in the amp better.
Yeah I'm aware of the usual tricks, I'm using pull bright, Lead gain/Drive/Treble at 8, bass at 0, mids 4 and presence 5. Usually in mid gain mode, but lately I'm digging harmonics more, it's less congested in the mids. The EQ is set pretty much in the typical v shape.
I just miss some 'weight' in the tone, the Mark IV has a bit of a vintage Vibe and a thickness in the mids, even when scooped, but I'm missing that a bit in the Axe.
Thanks for the idea with the IIC++, I'll have to check that model out.

As for the IRs, I'd be happy if you might want to share some tips what you used in the axe, or did you use other IRs? I have a lot of Ownhammer IRs, but it's a bit overwhelming, I have way too many IRs.

Have fun with the your new amps

Regarding different sounds of load boxes, I was quite shocked how different they sounded in one of the recent Keith Merrow videos.. hard to say which one sounded more accurate, but the difference was bigger than expected! It was with a Torpedo Studio though: https://youtu.be/ByfeQ_jSXcM?t=336 Also no idea how the switches were set on the TAE.

 

[Tiger1016]

In the Axe III, I liked the C++ model over the C+. It is supposedly the same exact model just with different pot tapers, and for whatever reason I was able to consistently stumble across the tones I was chasing easier with the C++. I would also use the Ideal tab in the amp block for dialing in and to play around with the various voicing switches to taste. The Input Drive and Gain have have a big impact on tone and feel and it is all about playing around with those until you find what you are looking for in any particular tone, but I assume you already know this through using your IV. I am sure that you are well aware of how much of an impact the IR you use has on the tone and feel; it is huge. Don't forget to apply appropriate high and low cuts in the cab, and also give the impedance curve tweaking a try.

But a separate question is are you using a load box with your IV and running it into the Axe for a direct comparison? I ask because the impedance curve from a load box also has a big impact on the tone. I had been using a Two Notes Captor and it noticeably warmer than the Boss Waza TAE because the Captor's impedance curve is noticeably flatter than than a real curve or the TAE.

I had been just about exclusively using the Mark IV models in the Axe for the past 4 years. I liked it better than the lead channel in my V, and I had previously just kind of just ignored the IIC+ model. But I decided that I wanted to give the Neural Quad Cortex a try, but it "only" has a IIC+ model and no IV. I was thinking I was going to buy a IV because of this, but also started trying out the IIC+ model in the Axe to see if I could "get by." I fell in love immediately and felt silly for missing out on it for the 6 years that I have owned an Axe. This got me into looking heavily at Mark IIIs as well and was trying to chase one of those when I stumbled across the deal on the IIC+ that I just could not pass up. Thing is I gravitate toward tones that have more bite and aggression, so that is kind of the opposite of the warm tones that is sounds like you might be chasing.

Thanks, I think maybe I just have to spend more time on it, or maybe try to tone match my amp. Yeah I'm using either the Suhr RL or the Torpedo Reload, I tested both with the same IR of course.
I think I have to A/B test more, or maybe try to EQ match in the DAW, maybe that will help a bit to dial in the amp better.
Yeah I'm aware of the usual tricks, I'm using pull bright, Lead gain/Drive/Treble at 8, bass at 0, mids 4 and presence 5. Usually in mid gain mode, but lately I'm digging harmonics more, it's less congested in the mids. The EQ is set pretty much in the typical v shape.
I just miss some 'weight' in the tone, the Mark IV has a bit of a vintage Vibe and a thickness in the mids, even when scooped, but I'm missing that a bit in the Axe.
Thanks for the idea with the IIC++, I'll have to check that model out.

As for the IRs, I'd be happy if you might want to share some tips what you used in the axe, or did you use other IRs? I have a lot of Ownhammer IRs, but it's a bit overwhelming, I have way too many IRs.

Have fun with the your new amps

Regarding different sounds of load boxes, I was quite shocked how different they sounded in one of the recent Keith Merrow videos.. hard to say which one sounded more accurate, but the difference was bigger than expected! It was with a Torpedo Studio though: https://youtu.be/ByfeQ_jSXcM?t=336 Also no idea how the switches were set on the TAE.

The Suhr RL is a great unit and does not contribute to a flatter sound like my Captor does, so that is not going to be something for you to work around. Regarding IRs, I mainly just use a small handful of options from Cab Pack #7 which is a ML Sound Labs Mesa Traditional 4x12 w/ V30s, and I gravitate towards a few of the SM57 and R121 mic blends that have great cut, good body and depth, but is tight with a woody tone on palm mutes. Ownhammer is obviously great as well.

 

[slash57]

Thanks for the suggestions!