20th Anni Shiva vs JP2C vs Archon

[SpiderWars]

I think I've got it narrowed down to these three. I'm looking for a good gigging amp with FX loop that can cover 90's grunge type stuff (STP, Pearl Jam, etc) plus still satisfy my need for higher gain tones of the 80's rodded Marshall variety and also Mesa Mark series type tones. I don't mind options but I want my final setup to be fairly simple. The JP2C looks more complicated but might be just as simple once I decide on certain set-and-forget options. I typ use an EQ in the loop so the EQs aren't an issue.

My typical rodded Marshall tones don't sound right for some of the 90's stuff, often that's medium-gain cranked AC30 type tones and I struggle with those sometimes. I always sound too distorted but I turn back the gain it doesn't sound right either. This amp doesn't have to nail those tones, ime they are difficult to get without volume.

I also need a good clean that's actually clean. I love a good sparkly clean tone. I can dirty it up with a pedal if I need to. Which brings up something worth noting, I always have a boost (or 3) on my pedalboard. I don't mind boosting, I sort of expect it.

Maybe none of these are the right choice. Other suggestions welcome. I realize the Archon is just over 1/2 the price of the other two (used), which are very comparable price wise.

 

[thesockmonster]

Only a Mark will do Mark tones. The JP2C is the first Mark I've played that doesn't NEED the GEQ, sounds fine on its own.

Problem as I see it - none of these will hit that AC-30 tone.

Sounds like you're describing a Friedman JJ100...

 

[SpiderWars]

Thanks, both the JJ and the SS look promising. But does the JJ do sparkly clean and does the SS do the Voxy thing?

 

[SavageRiffer]

Here's the thing man. The Archon is a magnificent amplifier. It has incredible cleans and drive sounds. It also has a wide-ranging sweet spot so you can get the goods at any volume. It feels very easy to play, gets harmonics like crazy, has a crunchy sizzle in the low end that can be brutal or kind of sweet. I heard a session player going through various sounds of the Archon 50 and couldn't believe the tones he got from end to end of the spectrum. Near the end, he plugged in a Boss Metal Core and played everything from Van Halen to Pantera. It would never have occurred to me that you could get Van Halen with a Metal Core, and it certainly wasn't the Brown Sound, but man it sounded real good.

Another thing about the Archon is that you usually hear clean and distortion sounds from it. However, the mid-gain and bluesy sounds that guy was getting convinced me that the Archon is much more than a clean/distortion amp. That's not a feature I've delved into much on the Archon, so maybe someone could weigh in on that aspect.

Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus.

I can't talk about the Shiva 20th without being biased because it's one of my top 5 favorite amps, so I'm not going to speak much about it. All I can say is that it's legendary. The cleans are equally impressive as the Archon though the Shiva 20th is a bit darker and not as jangly as the Archon cleans. I think they're both kind of hi-fi, but the Archon has the 6L6 thing going which kind of gives a bit more brilliance to cleans and a brilliant edge to crunch. The Shiva 20th has it's own dominant flavor, so whatever pedals you plug into it will pretty much still sound like the Shiva 20th but boosted. If you have Marshall, Fender, Dumble, or whatever flavor pedals, you might as well just use a vanilla overdrive as far as I'm concerned. It's just an amazing amp.

I haven't got to fully explore the JP2, but it's pretty amazing. I'm not going to say that it's better than a Mark V or whatever because it's not. I can't tell you a whole lot about it because I've probably only spent maybe 25-30 minutes. Mesa Boogie amps always feel different under my pick than Marshall style amps, so I can't seem to gel with them 100%. The JP2 has a nice feel, but it's probably not an exception. What I do like about it is the staggering array of sounds. The cleans are immaculate, but then you get overdrive which just blows your mind. Unlike the Mark V, it doesn't have all the modes or the "extreme" mode, but it also doesn't need any of that. If you're a solo player, then you can pretty much live in shred mode. Petrucci uses Dimarzio high output ceramic pickups, and Dimarzios almost always have very heavy mids. If you plug into the JP2 with PAFs or something, then the sample settings won't work for you. That's where the slider EQ can be useful.

Other than that, I can't think of anything else to add. Having the choice between those three amps is a great position to be in. I hope this info helps a bit. Good luck man.

 

[Bxlxaxkxe]

Here's the thing man. The Archon is a magnificent amplifier. It has incredible cleans and drive sounds. It also has a wide-ranging sweet spot so you can get the goods at any volume. It feels very easy to play, gets harmonics like crazy, has a crunchy sizzle in the low end that can be brutal or kind of sweet. I heard a session player going through various sounds of the Archon 50 and couldn't believe the tones he got from end to end of the spectrum. Near the end, he plugged in a Boss Metal Core and played everything from Van Halen to Pantera. It would never have occurred to me that you could get Van Halen with a Metal Core, and it certainly wasn't the Brown Sound, but man it sounded real good.

Another thing about the Archon is that you usually hear clean and distortion sounds from it. However, the mid-gain and bluesy sounds that guy was getting convinced me that the Archon is much more than a clean/distortion amp. That's not a feature I've delved into much on the Archon, so maybe someone could weigh in on that aspect.

Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus.

I can't talk about the Shiva 20th without being biased because it's one of my top 5 favorite amps, so I'm not going to speak much about it. All I can say is that it's legendary. The cleans are equally impressive as the Archon though the Shiva 20th is a bit darker and not as jangly as the Archon cleans. I think they're both kind of hi-fi, but the Archon has the 6L6 thing going which kind of gives a bit more brilliance to cleans and a brilliant edge to crunch. The Shiva 20th has it's own dominant flavor, so whatever pedals you plug into it will pretty much still sound like the Shiva 20th but boosted. If you have Marshall, Fender, Dumble, or whatever flavor pedals, you might as well just use a vanilla overdrive as far as I'm concerned. It's just an amazing amp.

I haven't got to fully explore the JP2, but it's pretty amazing. I'm not going to say that it's better than a Mark V or whatever because it's not. I can't tell you a whole lot about it because I've probably only spent maybe 25-30 minutes. Mesa Boogie amps always feel different under my pick than Marshall style amps, so I can't seem to gel with them 100%. The JP2 has a nice feel, but it's probably not an exception. What I do like about it is the staggering array of sounds. The cleans are immaculate, but then you get overdrive which just blows your mind. Unlike the Mark V, it doesn't have all the modes or the "extreme" mode, but it also doesn't need any of that. If you're a solo player, then you can pretty much live in shred mode. Petrucci uses Dimarzio high output ceramic pickups, and Dimarzios almost always have very heavy mids. If you plug into the JP2 with PAFs or something, then the sample settings won't work for you. That's where the slider EQ can be useful.

Other than that, I can't think of anything else to add. Having the choice between those three amps is a great position to be in. I hope this info helps a bit. Good luck man.

Well said. Not the OP but how do the high gain rock/metal tones compare between the Archon and a 20th Shiva?

 

[ProgFree]

If you want ac30 tones you need an amp with an el84 power section. Otherwise you'll not get there imho.

 

[SpiderWars]

If you want ac30 tones you need an amp with an el84 power section. Otherwise you'll not get there imho.

True, but an EL84 power section probably won't do several of the other tones I need at volume. I have a couple of hombrew EL84 amps, a Rocket clone and a ZWreck clone. I love 'em for what they are and I think they are great pedal platforms. It's a tall order for an amp to have great gainy tones AND a great sparkly clean AND a great med-gain Voxy tone AND a cupholder (lol).

 

[DragonCrestPC]

The JP2C i have is incredible, cant recommend it enough! good luck!

 

[mooncobra]

Thanks, both the JJ and the SS look promising. But does the JJ do sparkly clean and does the SS do the Voxy thing?

The ss100 is incredible. I got one a while back and was offered quite a few different amps in trade for my amp, and I went and played the new be100 and ss100 and I chose the ss100. AMAZING gain channel and the boost is also killer, and the clean channel is great. I think the only clean channel on a channel switcher I liked better was on the pt100. many, many great high gain and clean tones in the ss100. everyone says the ss100 is a dark amp, maybe if the eq stays at noon, but if you play with the eq it can get as bright as you want it.

 

[fusedbrain]

Thanks, both the JJ and the SS look promising. But does the JJ do sparkly clean and does the SS do the Voxy thing?

It was either in a video Dave did with the JJ for Sweetwater, or the vid with Jerry Cantrell demo-ing the JJ, but I'm pretty sure they said the clean channel of the JJ was voiced like a Vox AC30

 

[Candiria]

The Mesa TC-50 might be more of what you're looking for, but the JP-2C is awesome.

 

[bigangryguitar]

If you want ac30 tones you need an amp with an el84 power section. Otherwise you'll not get there imho.

True, but an EL84 power section probably won't do several of the other tones I need at volume. I have a couple of hombrew EL84 amps, a Rocket clone and a ZWreck clone. I love 'em for what they are and I think they are great pedal platforms. It's a tall order for an amp to have great gainy tones AND a great sparkly clean AND a great med-gain Voxy tone AND a cupholder (lol).

Personally I think a Budda sd45/sd80 and a boost would get you closer than what you have mentioned. I just traded away a 20th Shiva and it's one of my all time favorite amps but is more Fender/Bogner than any vox DNA. The Marks will also have the nice clean tones but not vox. Haven't played the Archon. The Budda amps to me have a nice Voxy clean that can grit up with picking dynamics. The lead channel on its own isn't quite there for searing lead tones but with a boost imho it's as good as anything I've plugged into.

That was the main reason I let the Bogner go. To me the Budda sounded pretty close on the lead channel (not better or worse just a touch different) but I liked that the clean channel on the Budda breaks up more but still sounds great.

Shane

 

[SpiderWars]

Thanks for the responses. Great info SR, thanks for posting that. Maybe I should just be looking for a great pedal to get the Vox tones from a sparkly clean channel. If I'm going to compromise, it prob should be there. I can always dirty up a Fendery clean to get close. But best case is that it gets close. Right now I'm using a Koko boost set low into a RYRA Klone with gain at noon-ish but it's never going into a Fendery/sparkly clean, always the Rocket or a small Orange at low volume. Maybe a King of Tone pedal into any of those three would get close enough.

 

[ProgFree]

Just remembered that the mesa F 30 with el84 can get into ac30 territory and also sound mean as a beast. Quite a cool amp and they go quite cheap, if you can find one...

 

[SavageRiffer]

Here's the thing man. The Archon is a magnificent amplifier. It has incredible cleans and drive sounds. It also has a wide-ranging sweet spot so you can get the goods at any volume. It feels very easy to play, gets harmonics like crazy, has a crunchy sizzle in the low end that can be brutal or kind of sweet. I heard a session player going through various sounds of the Archon 50 and couldn't believe the tones he got from end to end of the spectrum. Near the end, he plugged in a Boss Metal Core and played everything from Van Halen to Pantera. It would never have occurred to me that you could get Van Halen with a Metal Core, and it certainly wasn't the Brown Sound, but man it sounded real good.

Another thing about the Archon is that you usually hear clean and distortion sounds from it. However, the mid-gain and bluesy sounds that guy was getting convinced me that the Archon is much more than a clean/distortion amp. That's not a feature I've delved into much on the Archon, so maybe someone could weigh in on that aspect.

Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus.

I can't talk about the Shiva 20th without being biased because it's one of my top 5 favorite amps, so I'm not going to speak much about it. All I can say is that it's legendary. The cleans are equally impressive as the Archon though the Shiva 20th is a bit darker and not as jangly as the Archon cleans. I think they're both kind of hi-fi, but the Archon has the 6L6 thing going which kind of gives a bit more brilliance to cleans and a brilliant edge to crunch. The Shiva 20th has it's own dominant flavor, so whatever pedals you plug into it will pretty much still sound like the Shiva 20th but boosted. If you have Marshall, Fender, Dumble, or whatever flavor pedals, you might as well just use a vanilla overdrive as far as I'm concerned. It's just an amazing amp.

I haven't got to fully explore the JP2, but it's pretty amazing. I'm not going to say that it's better than a Mark V or whatever because it's not. I can't tell you a whole lot about it because I've probably only spent maybe 25-30 minutes. Mesa Boogie amps always feel different under my pick than Marshall style amps, so I can't seem to gel with them 100%. The JP2 has a nice feel, but it's probably not an exception. What I do like about it is the staggering array of sounds. The cleans are immaculate, but then you get overdrive which just blows your mind. Unlike the Mark V, it doesn't have all the modes or the "extreme" mode, but it also doesn't need any of that. If you're a solo player, then you can pretty much live in shred mode. Petrucci uses Dimarzio high output ceramic pickups, and Dimarzios almost always have very heavy mids. If you plug into the JP2 with PAFs or something, then the sample settings won't work for you. That's where the slider EQ can be useful.

Other than that, I can't think of anything else to add. Having the choice between those three amps is a great position to be in. I hope this info helps a bit. Good luck man.

Well said. Not the OP but how do the high gain rock/metal tones compare between the Archon and a 20th Shiva?

Well my philosophy has changed quite a bit as a result of wasting so much damned money trading gear around. The fact is that you get out of it what you put into it. I hear guys on Youtube, forums, Guitar Center, local shops... getting awesome metal/rock tone using anything from a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe to a Friedman Brown Eye. You get out of it what you put into it. One thing that my Diezel has taught me is a lot has to do with technique. At first, I thought the DMoll lacked a little bit of low end focus or something. Once I tightened up my palm muting technique, I realized that it freaking kills. Some amps seem to give in to a person's technique more than others. Therefore, if you're not getting what you want out of most any amp, then the first thing to adjust is your technique.

That being said, the Shiva 20th is a bit wider sounding because of the big bottle tubes. The low end is massive, but not out of control or sometimes overbearing like a Diezel or Mesa Boogie. It's not super tight, but I've heard some guys do some hardcore stuff with it. The Archon, at least to me, seems to lend itself a little easier to crunchy or more aggressive rock/metal sounds. You can get that all from the Shiva 20th, but it takes just a little more adjustment.

To me, 6L6 power sections seem to fit slightly more comfortably into metal/hard rock. Everything from Mesa Boogies, Peavey, Soldano, all have 6L6/5881 power sections. The Engl Savage has a quad of 5881's I think. El34's seem to me to be a bit browner if that makes any sense. The Shiva 20th has KT88s (I wouldn't recommend it with any other tube) which are compatible with 6550s. Though they're compatible types, KT88s sound a bit more in the realm of EL34s and 6551s sound a bit more in the realm of 6L6s. Not that they sound like those tubes, but if I had to categorize them, that would be it.

In any case, the Archon has kind of the proverbial 6L6 thing going on. There's a brilliant edge to the crunch. The Shiva 20th is a bit rounder. An edgy crunch lends itself to getting a good metal sound most of the time. Going on this, I'd say the Archon kind of gives it all up easier. It's when you want a rounder, warmer tone that you have to adjust the Archon. The Shiva lends itself very easy to that kind of thing.

Yep, it's a comprehensive answer, but I think I kind of gravitate towards 6L6 type tubes for heavier stuff these days. I was never very successful getting metal sounds out of EL34 type amps. It's so much easier to get rock sounds with them for my style/technique. Also, the Shiva 20th has kind of a stiffer pick attack. If you put EL34s in a Shiva 20th, it would be spongy - almost rubbery. The Archon has a very immediate attack like the Shiva, but more straightforward. Kind of in between a Shiva 20th and Mesa Boogie. If your pick attack varies, the Archon will be very responsive to it. The Shiva 20th kind of helps your pick attack out a little more and lets you get away with a few things.

 

[scottosan]

Thanks, both the JJ and the SS look promising. But does the JJ do sparkly clean and does the SS do the Voxy thing?

The ss100 is incredible. I got one a while back and was offered quite a few different amps in trade for my amp, and I went and played the new be100 and ss100 and I chose the ss100. AMAZING gain channel and the boost is also killer, and the clean channel is great. I think the only clean channel on a channel switcher I liked better was on the pt100. many, many great high gain and clean tones in the ss100. everyone says the ss100 is a dark amp, maybe if the eq stays at noon, but if you play with the eq it can get as bright as you want it.

dave stated that the SS100 has an audio taper pot vs the linear in the BE100, so the SS100's treble pot at 9 would be like the BE100s pot at noon.

 

[Racerxrated]

"Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus."

Gonna have to disagree with your statement here. I played an Archon 50 and it sounded like shit. I ran it through a V30 cab and tried every different EQ setting I could think of...still bad IMO.
Wizards are every bit a steamroller of awesomeness, and although I've been known to make fun of the Friedman fanbois on occasion he does make some great products and when I had an issue with a modded BE 100 I had, Dave was very helpful and quick to respond. I would EASILY take any Friedman or Wizard over an Archon, simply because the tone is better. Now, to be fair I am a Marshall fan and those are Marshall style amps. In fact I sold both the BE100 and Wizard MTL and now have a 1990 2555 and an SLO and I like those amps better for my tone. But I tried to like the Archon and it just wasn't a very good sounding amp IMO. I was looking for a Modern toned amp and would have bought one if I thought it was good, but it just kinda sucked. Maybe it was a lemon? I know others like them.
Oh well.

 

[Bxlxaxkxe]

"Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus."

Gonna have to disagree with your statement here. I played an Archon 50 and it sounded like shit. I ran it through a V30 cab and tried every different EQ setting I could think of...still bad IMO.
Wizards are every bit a steamroller of awesomeness, and although I've been known to make fun of the Friedman fanbois on occasion he does make some great products and when I had an issue with a modded BE 100 I had, Dave was very helpful and quick to respond. I would EASILY take any Friedman or Wizard over an Archon, simply because the tone is better. Now, to be fair I am a Marshall fan and those are Marshall style amps. In fact I sold both the BE100 and Wizard MTL and now have a 1990 2555 and an SLO and I like those amps better for my tone. But I tried to like the Archon and it just wasn't a very good sounding amp IMO. I was looking for a Modern toned amp and would have bought one if I thought it was good, but it just kinda sucked. Maybe it was a lemon? I know others like them.
Oh well.

Thats the strange thing about the Archon- it's very polarizing. Makes it really tough to get a feel for it. And the clips on youtube are the same- some sound great and others are horrible (but that goes for any amp clips).

 

[SavageRiffer]

"Anyway, the problem with the Archon is that it's often sought after and dumped. It's not because it's not up to par with any other amp in it's class. It's that it doesn't have the same prestige, especially for people heavily into these kinds of forums, that something like Friedmans and Wizards have. I think that if you're not phased by brand loyalty or prestige, the Archon is the kind of amp you can keep and get a lot of use from. They're extremely well built too, so it'll probably last a lifetime. The external bias is almost a must-have feature these days, so that's another plus."

Gonna have to disagree with your statement here. I played an Archon 50 and it sounded like shit. I ran it through a V30 cab and tried every different EQ setting I could think of...still bad IMO.
Wizards are every bit a steamroller of awesomeness, and although I've been known to make fun of the Friedman fanbois on occasion he does make some great products and when I had an issue with a modded BE 100 I had, Dave was very helpful and quick to respond. I would EASILY take any Friedman or Wizard over an Archon, simply because the tone is better. Now, to be fair I am a Marshall fan and those are Marshall style amps. In fact I sold both the BE100 and Wizard MTL and now have a 1990 2555 and an SLO and I like those amps better for my tone. But I tried to like the Archon and it just wasn't a very good sounding amp IMO. I was looking for a Modern toned amp and would have bought one if I thought it was good, but it just kinda sucked. Maybe it was a lemon? I know others like them.
Oh well.

Thats the strange thing about the Archon- it's very polarizing. Makes it really tough to get a feel for it. And the clips on youtube are the same- some sound great and others are horrible (but that goes for any amp clips).

I wish I had video of the guy who was playing it. There was nothing special about his setup. He used a stock Ibanez from the store, a Boss Metal Core, and a TC mini delay pedal. It sounded damned great. He played louder than most guys play in stores, so maybe the volume you had it at had something to do with it. However, I suppose I inadvertently exaggerated a bit about it being on par with Wizard, etc...

What I meant was that it's an excellent build quality, has great features, and sounds awesome for the most part. That's what I meant by "on par," not that it's literally on the same level as a Wizard or Friedman. All I can say is that it's like any other amp... It sounds incredible in the hands of some people, average in the hands of most, and shitty in the hands of others.

 

[PBGas]

I love my JP-2C. Such a great amp with so many features and options on it. Very easy to use, great effects loop and the form factor being a smaller head is great for gigging. I only run mine in 60watt mode but go out the back at 4ohms (Mesa recommends this) into an 8ohm Mesa widebody 1x12 with V30. It sounds amazing and I have no issues being heard on stage, especially with a pounder behind the skins.