Am I right about Bogner 4x12s?

[Aristocat]

Someday I'll join the Bogner club

I want a 101B badly.

...you should sell that "dead" Friedman and join the satisfied and happy guys using Bogner's!

Tempting but I haven't started flipping yet.

FIXED

I used to flip in HS and early into college as I worked at different music stores but it's less expensive and wiser for me to save as much as I can.

 

[Classic]

I've got an early 1980s Marshall 1960BV and a more recent Bogner 412ST that I've done a straight up comparison with an the Bogner is just a better cab all round. The Bogner is fuller and disperses the sound more. For what its worth I've tried Cornford, Marshall and Bogner Heads through the cabs and the same cab won out each time.

I could have settled with the Marshall and I still have it but as the Bogner Shiva is my main gigging amp cab gas got the better of me and I'm glad I got it.

If you're struggling to cut through the mix I suggest looking at your signal chain as the chances are there's something there robbing highs or thinning your sound, especially as you have the mids cranked.

 

[halebox]

Perhaps the Baron doesn't cut through mix. I love barons Ive owned a few. There were times I wished they cut through live more on stage then Id watch a video of the show and it sounded amazing? these were usually un mic's shows. I still want to get another one as I think there is something special to their sound.

 

[rp108]

Perhaps the Baron doesn't cut through mix ....

This would be my guess. There are just some amps that don't cut well. I remember thinking my Engl Powerball was awesome and then the other guitar player showed up and it was hard to cut the mix.

 

[stratotone]

Batting inside a cab doesn't affect the highs - it does change the calculated internal volume by up to 20%. In other words, it makes the cab sound bigger. Any high end loss on a bogner cab is that grillcloth, the old Marshall cloth was the same way. It was like a high end roll off.

 

[lolzgreg]

Also so I have a boggy 4x12. It fucking sick, tons of low end and the highs are super smooth. I find that paired with by Baron K88 it kinda gets buried in the mix. My other guitarist uses an Axefx with the 5150 model, his 333xl head (for power) and bugera cab and he cuts through like a knife. I love the K88 but maybe If I paired it up with a Mesa I might cut through more?

Thoughts? I've used Mesas before and always liked them but I haven't been able to A/B it with the Bogner.

While the cabinet makes the [biggest] difference out of any part of the equipment chain, user error is probably part of the equation. Given you are playing with another person using a tube amp, you can get any [amp with a tube power section] to cut through a live mix, given you are setting the control knobs appropriately, and that the amp is electrically capable of producing enough wattage. I have run some insane settings live on a few of my amps, even when they were mic'd up at shows, and have had no issues being heard personally, or by the audience. I have used a plethora of cabinets from ones with no branding or markings to Mesa Standard 412s. Get those mids up there and the treble down a bit. Once it sounds great on stage, you should be in business.

I prefer the Mesa cabinets to Bogner cabinets any day.

Brandon Ellis from the band Arsis has been using my old Baron K2 live for his entire career. It does the trick live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IgaVIxfpI

Check out the rig on the right

Batting inside a cab doesn't affect the highs - it does change the calculated internal volume by up to 20%. In other words, it makes the cab sound bigger. Any high end loss on a bogner cab is that grillcloth, the old Marshall cloth was the same way. It was like a high end roll off.

I would say it definitely affects the high end. Changing the calculated volume alone will alter the high end due to the Fletcher-Munson curve and how our ears perceive the spectrum at different volume levels. High frequency waves bouncing through the cabinet that have enough energy are eventually going to be re-directed at the speaker cones and will be either absorbed, amplified, or diffused depending on the physical factors. The batting will absorb higher to lower-mid band frequencies depending on the noise reduction coefficient of the material.

 

[midnightlaundry]

Also so I have a boggy 4x12. It fucking sick, tons of low end and the highs are super smooth. I find that paired with by Baron K88 it kinda gets buried in the mix. My other guitarist uses an Axefx with the 5150 model, his 333xl head (for power) and bugera cab and he cuts through like a knife. I love the K88 but maybe If I paired it up with a Mesa I might cut through more?

Thoughts? I've used Mesas before and always liked them but I haven't been able to A/B it with the Bogner.

While the cabinet makes the [biggest] difference out of any part of the equipment chain, user error is probably part of the equation. Given you are playing with another person using a tube amp, you can get any [amp with a tube power section] to cut through a live mix, given you are setting the control knobs appropriately, and that the amp is electrically capable of producing enough wattage. I have run some insane settings live on a few of my amps, even when they were mic'd up at shows, and have had no issues being heard personally, or by the audience. I have used a plethora of cabinets from ones with no branding or markings to Mesa Standard 412s. Get those mids up there and the treble down a bit. Once it sounds great on stage, you should be in business.

I prefer the Mesa cabinets to Bogner cabinets any day.

Brandon Ellis from the band Arsis has been using my old Baron K2 live for his entire career. It does the trick live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IgaVIxfpI

Check out the rig on the right

Batting inside a cab doesn't affect the highs - it does change the calculated internal volume by up to 20%. In other words, it makes the cab sound bigger. Any high end loss on a bogner cab is that grillcloth, the old Marshall cloth was the same way. It was like a high end roll off.

I would say it definitely affects the high end. Changing the calculated volume alone will alter the high end due to the Fletcher-Munson curve and how our ears perceive the spectrum at different volume levels. High frequency waves bouncing through the cabinet that have enough energy are eventually going to be re-directed at the speaker cones and will be either absorbed, amplified, or diffused depending on the physical factors. The batting will absorb higher to lower-mid band frequencies depending on the noise reduction coefficient of the material.

Would you say it's better to have it or not to have it? How thick and big is this bating anyways?

 

[Devilinside]

If its an ubercab, I'd replace those 75's with H30's or 2 more V30's if the baron is a little on the dark side. I love bogners cabs but not a fan of the amps. I had a bogner über half stack for a few years and it was just to dark to me. Once I got it to sound aggressive it was really dark and hard for me to tighten up

 

[lolzgreg]

Also so I have a boggy 4x12. It fucking sick, tons of low end and the highs are super smooth. I find that paired with by Baron K88 it kinda gets buried in the mix. My other guitarist uses an Axefx with the 5150 model, his 333xl head (for power) and bugera cab and he cuts through like a knife. I love the K88 but maybe If I paired it up with a Mesa I might cut through more?

Thoughts? I've used Mesas before and always liked them but I haven't been able to A/B it with the Bogner.

While the cabinet makes the [biggest] difference out of any part of the equipment chain, user error is probably part of the equation. Given you are playing with another person using a tube amp, you can get any [amp with a tube power section] to cut through a live mix, given you are setting the control knobs appropriately, and that the amp is electrically capable of producing enough wattage. I have run some insane settings live on a few of my amps, even when they were mic'd up at shows, and have had no issues being heard personally, or by the audience. I have used a plethora of cabinets from ones with no branding or markings to Mesa Standard 412s. Get those mids up there and the treble down a bit. Once it sounds great on stage, you should be in business.

I prefer the Mesa cabinets to Bogner cabinets any day.

Brandon Ellis from the band Arsis has been using my old Baron K2 live for his entire career. It does the trick live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IgaVIxfpI

Check out the rig on the right

Batting inside a cab doesn't affect the highs - it does change the calculated internal volume by up to 20%. In other words, it makes the cab sound bigger. Any high end loss on a bogner cab is that grillcloth, the old Marshall cloth was the same way. It was like a high end roll off.

I would say it definitely affects the high end. Changing the calculated volume alone will alter the high end due to the Fletcher-Munson curve and how our ears perceive the spectrum at different volume levels. High frequency waves bouncing through the cabinet that have enough energy are eventually going to be re-directed at the speaker cones and will be either absorbed, amplified, or diffused depending on the physical factors. The batting will absorb higher to lower-mid band frequencies depending on the noise reduction coefficient of the material.

Would you say it's better to have it or not to have it? How thick and big is this bating anyways?

I don't like it at all. It really depends. I've seen cabinets with 1" all the way up to 4"

 

[midnightlaundry]

Now that I think about it, my Carvin had a 1" think square of fiberglass insulation glued to the back of the cab.

 

[bananaladonpcp]

it doesn't matter at all what kind of tone you have when you are playing by yourself. I've found that about 90% of awesome mix tones sound pretty awful by themselves. Keep messing with you eq while your band is playing. forget what it sounds like when they are not.

 

[se7en]

Someday I'll join the Bogner club

I want a 101B badly.

I've owned an EL34 Shiva and XTC Classic. And there's a friend's 101B sitting in my man cave right now on long-term loan. Also had his Uber TJ in my possession for a while.

What I've learned about Bogners is that they have great tone, but like most great amps they do a few things great... but not all things. IMO they're awesome for lead work, as they have a juicy, somewhat compressed thing going, that just makes leads so fluid. But outside the Ubers, they lack a huge bottom that most Marshall style amps can generate for big, raw, roaring, open-sounding rhythm work. I used to be in-love with the Bogner sound period. And then after spending time back in the Marshall camp again, I wasn't. And now I am a fan again. As long as I keep in-mind that a Bogner is always going to have that Bogner tone, then I dig them. Not going to get a real Marshall Plexi/JCM800 thing going with one.

In regards to the thread subject, I owned a pair of Bogner OS2X12s and a Bogner straight Uberkab. Those cabs sounded bigger than my Marshall and other cabs for sure.

Thanks for the in depth review. I've played a Shiva and both a 101B and 20Th Ecstasy and you're right on about the lead work aspect. Wasn't crazy about the Shiva as it felt like a one trick pony. I like to tweak sometimes and I'm glad the Ecstasy model doesn't look like mission control.

I'd run my Friedman and a 101B in tandem. Man would that sound huge!

Friedman BE and 20th Ecstasy are incredible on their own although I haven't ran them together yet.

 

[Aristocat]

Someday I'll join the Bogner club

I want a 101B badly.

I've owned an EL34 Shiva and XTC Classic. And there's a friend's 101B sitting in my man cave right now on long-term loan. Also had his Uber TJ in my possession for a while.

What I've learned about Bogners is that they have great tone, but like most great amps they do a few things great... but not all things. IMO they're awesome for lead work, as they have a juicy, somewhat compressed thing going, that just makes leads so fluid. But outside the Ubers, they lack a huge bottom that most Marshall style amps can generate for big, raw, roaring, open-sounding rhythm work. I used to be in-love with the Bogner sound period. And then after spending time back in the Marshall camp again, I wasn't. And now I am a fan again. As long as I keep in-mind that a Bogner is always going to have that Bogner tone, then I dig them. Not going to get a real Marshall Plexi/JCM800 thing going with one.

In regards to the thread subject, I owned a pair of Bogner OS2X12s and a Bogner straight Uberkab. Those cabs sounded bigger than my Marshall and other cabs for sure.

Thanks for the in depth review. I've played a Shiva and both a 101B and 20Th Ecstasy and you're right on about the lead work aspect. Wasn't crazy about the Shiva as it felt like a one trick pony. I like to tweak sometimes and I'm glad the Ecstasy model doesn't look like mission control.

I'd run my Friedman and a 101B in tandem. Man would that sound huge!

Friedman BE and 20th Ecstasy are incredible on their own although I haven't ran them together yet.

I'm doing it some day!

 

[Red_Label]

Two great amps often sound AWESOME together. Below is a list of some of the rock amps I've run stereo.

Shiva + XTC Classic
XTC Classic + Uber Twin Jet (HUGE, BEAUTIFUL, AWESOME!!!)
XTC Classic + VHT Ultra Lead
XTC Classic + Elmwood M60
M60 + VHT UL

And right now my buddy (who owns the 101b at my house) has really been digging his "Splawn-Lick" rig. It's a 2012 Splawn QR and Mike Lickliter's Rage prototype. He's owned about everything, including most of the amps in my stereo rig list) and says the Splawn-Lick is his favorite. Which is v why the 101b is in my possession right now.

BTW... The Lickliter was MY baby until I loaned it to him and he fell in love with it. I miss it. He's always been curious about the Friedmans... I should pick one up so can make him jealous for guilting me out of the Lickliter.

 

[LickliterAmps]

The Lickliter Rage amp. It has a full clean channel on rear panel and has low and high contour controls on the overdrive channel.

 

[barnesjd]

it doesn't matter at all what kind of tone you have when you are playing by yourself. I've found that about 90% of awesome mix tones sound pretty awful by themselves. Keep messing with you eq while your band is playing. forget what it sounds like when they are not.

This ^.

Also, I have a straight Bogner 412, and with the 4 V30's there should be NO problems cutting. I haven't been in a band for years now, just a bedroom jammer... so I swapped out two of the V30's for K100s because I wanted to balance out that raw upper-mid spike it has when paired with my head. Unfortunately, I over-corrected and now I don't have enough mids... but that's another thread.

 

[Red_Label]

The Lickliter Rage amp. It has a full clean channel on rear panel and has low and high contour controls on the overdrive channel.

Yeeeeaaaahhhh booooy!!!

The Rage was a sweetie and my buddy Jay (lurker here) adores it. I miss it! Someday I'll have another. I believe that a mutual friend his and mine was inspired by it as well and has contacted you about a build at some point.