amp growl

[dooredge]

 

[electrophonic.tonic]

straight from the horse's mouth:

GW Can you talk about your gear setup on some of the classic Mötley albums, like Shout at the Devil [1983]?

MARS That was all my black ’72 Les Paul Custom guitar. I bought it for 400 bucks and sold it years later for 25 grand. That was a good investment! And the amp line was all Marshall. In the old days I had two: a ’71, and another that was also pretty ancient. They had master volumes, but on the back of the amp; I had them built-in. I used an Electro-Harmonix LPB-1 [linear power booster] on the front and had the amps stereo-ed off. And that’s how I played in those days.

I had to dig a bit in this interview to find it.

http://www.guitarworld.com/mick-mars-ke ... w-two-road

and another cool link regarding the recording of Shout at the Devil:

https://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... _Cr_e.aspx

I think growl has a lot to do with the cab and speakers too.
I have a soldano Hot Rod 50 that doesn't growl a lot, but I once played it through an old hiwatt cab and that growl, I really remember it.

totally agree

 

[Mizati20]

I don't think anything growls more than a VH-4... but I'm biased... I'll probably be buried with one...

 

[eraserhead101]

My friedman jcm 800 has growl for days.

 

[Riffraff]

Stock RG520QSB straight into a Marshall 2266. Clip opens with growl.

 

[Giga]

my opinion is that a sine wave doesn't growl.

Of course not. That's why I used it as an example, broseph.

I may not remember everything perfectly from my college acoustical engineering classes (I majored in business after all), and I'm no expert. But a sine wave is a pure tone. Combine multiple sine waves and you magically have a new sound with tone, timbre, and harmonic content. That harmonic content can change the shape of the wave. And all those different waves combine to form overtones (both harmonic and non-harmonic). The right shapes and harmonic content, when combined, form a sort of "doppler effect" that you hear as "growl." The same thing happens when you tune a guitar using natural harmonics. You listen for the "beats" (doppler effect) between your reference note and the string you are tuning. The slower the beats, the more in-tune your string is, right?

Well, when you play a chord (like a perfect 5th - a power chord) with a gained-out amp, you have a sound with lots of harmonic content, and all its individual sine waves (because the building block of any sound can be broken down into its fundamental and individual sine waves) combine to create a pulsing/beating effect if the fundamental is low enough for your ear to perceive the distance (read: time) between each pulse.

While you maybe can perceive a 20,000 Hz tone, you can't perceive the time (pulse width) between each cycle of even a 1,000 Hz tone. But you can perceive the pulse width of a 100 Hertz note. All of that is why it's easier to get an amp to growl when you're hitting some gained-out power chord with a low fundamental. And some chords will growl (like a 5th) and others will not (an octave).

I don't know if compression and EQ and all that matter. Maybe they do. All I'm attempting to do is explain what "growl" is to begin with.

Here's a good example. In this video, the synth is playing pure tones. But the waveform maybe be square, sawtooth, sine, whatever. On the lower notes you can definitely hear a growl. Because you can perceive the pulse width of each cycle in the note because they are slow enough. Same thing happens with a guitar amp. Lots of gain + the right chords = growl.

And in this one, you can both hear and see "growl" starting at 1:10. Although it's at a much higher frequency than you'd hear on a guitar amp. But same principle.

That's how I've always understood it too.

That's also why, on a "growly" amp you get punished quicker if your guitar is even slightly out of tune.

Amp's that introduce a lot of harmonics will growl better (more harmonics -> more knocking -> more growl)

Giga

 

[petejt]

my opinion is that a sine wave doesn't growl.

Of course not. That's why I used it as an example, broseph.

I may not remember everything perfectly from my college acoustical engineering classes (I majored in business after all), and I'm no expert. But a sine wave is a pure tone. Combine multiple sine waves and you magically have a new sound with tone, timbre, and harmonic content. That harmonic content can change the shape of the wave. And all those different waves combine to form overtones (both harmonic and non-harmonic). The right shapes and harmonic content, when combined, form a sort of "doppler effect" that you hear as "growl." The same thing happens when you tune a guitar using natural harmonics. You listen for the "beats" (doppler effect) between your reference note and the string you are tuning. The slower the beats, the more in-tune your string is, right?

Well, when you play a chord (like a perfect 5th - a power chord) with a gained-out amp, you have a sound with lots of harmonic content, and all its individual sine waves (because the building block of any sound can be broken down into its fundamental and individual sine waves) combine to create a pulsing/beating effect if the fundamental is low enough for your ear to perceive the distance (read: time) between each pulse.

While you maybe can perceive a 20,000 Hz tone, you can't perceive the time (pulse width) between each cycle of even a 1,000 Hz tone. But you can perceive the pulse width of a 100 Hertz note. All of that is why it's easier to get an amp to growl when you're hitting some gained-out power chord with a low fundamental. And some chords will growl (like a 5th) and others will not (an octave).

I don't know if compression and EQ and all that matter. Maybe they do. All I'm attempting to do is explain what "growl" is to begin with.

Here's a good example. In this video, the synth is playing pure tones. But the waveform maybe be square, sawtooth, sine, whatever. On the lower notes you can definitely hear a growl. Because you can perceive the pulse width of each cycle in the note because they are slow enough. Same thing happens with a guitar amp. Lots of gain + the right chords = growl.

And in this one, you can both hear and see "growl" starting at 1:10. Although it's at a much higher frequency than you'd hear on a guitar amp. But same principle.

That's how I've always understood it too.

That's also why, on a "growly" amp you get punished quicker if your guitar is even slightly out of tune.

Amp's that introduce a lot of harmonics will growl better (more harmonics -> more knocking -> more growl)

Giga

I know it's getting close to two years on, but thanks very much for that.


In that case, which amps in particular introduce a lot of harmonics?

 

[mooncobra]

this ccv growls, more so than other ccv's I have heard/played. it also has bite to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAaM0MdvrY

 

[V2a]

Baron K2 series (in the video below, the K2 channel of the 'dual high gain' amp) is pretty growly in my opinion.

 

[anomaly]

It's called a "Power Chord".... amazing thing they are.

 

[JCDenton6]

Here's some growl, 2 ch dual recto here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATTijpjTi5U#t=1261

 

[blackie13]

this "gnawing, chewing, growling, burbling" thing is exactly what im after.

that accept tone has always been one of my favorites...even back in the day i knew it was something unattainable by mere mortal gear!

a more recent Accept growling guitar tone - ENGL amps I think

very Judas Priest-ish riff, love this song

Damn that sounds killer! It has that top-end zing too that adds a lot to the aggressiveness of the growl sound.

EVH 5150III
Next album stalindgrand was a wizard modern classic and blind rage was kemper(a bit of everything)

 

[gtr31]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=163541

 

[Beyond Black]

Baron K2 series (in the video below, the K2 channel of the 'dual high gain' amp) is pretty growly in my opinion.

Holy shit that sounds wicked.

 

[longfxukxnhair]

any marshalls stock that do this?

Possibly- but I would set the controls quite dark (very low treble and presence, a lot of mids and bass) and maybe even throw an EQ pedal in front to push the low mids some more? Either that or use it with some dark-sounding speakers.

Jub possible. I have a 6100 that growls pretty well.

 

[ukxxx]

does it matter what type of output and preamp tubes are in the amp to get that growl??? like 6l6 or el34? just wandering

 

[V2a]

no - it comes from the preamp design.
the Baron above probably had KT88s. 6L6s can also sound HUGE.

 

[Bloodrock]

No modern high gain amp "growls". That sound comes from power tube distortion, which modern amps don't have. Go listen to a stock jcm800 cranked and you'll hear growl.

 

[petejt]

my opinion is that a sine wave doesn't growl. growl is a function of the low mid frequencies hitting the distortion stage. many amps roll off highs and lows before the gain/distortion stages to give a certain type of tone or feel. depending on how much lows and highs they roll off, and at what frequency they roll it off, it will change the amount or type of growl.

back in the day when i used Rocktron preamps, i would manipulate the eq before the distortion to change the distortion shape or feel. by adding more mids between 650-1200hz you increase the sustain and compression, but totally kill the growl....which plays fine for legato leads. the growl was down around 225-300hz; by boosting that area i could greatly increase the apparent distortion and growl...but at the expense of legato sustain. there is always a trade off.....absolute chunk. or smooth lead.

many amps that provide tons of chunk and growl "need" a tube screamer to smooth it out for leads....hence the reason many recto users also employ a tube screamer. they don't use a tube screamer for distortion mind you (as can be noted by their settings) but the tube screamer acts like a filter or eq to clean up certain low frequencies and tighten the mix.

another way around the tube screamer is by choice of pickups and guitar. a bright sounding guitar with tons of high mids will naturally kill off some growl and lend itself to a smoother lead feel.

try an eq before your amp and play around with the frequencies i talked about and see if you can't change the growl/distortion of your amp.

I've read that if you boost a frequency in front of the amp, it actually causes a harmonic of double its value to be more prominent in the signal?

E.g., you said for growl, you'd boost 225Hz-300Hz in front of the amp. So this would actually kick up 450Hz-600Hz in the signal chain?

And to kill growl (for more sustain, smoothness & compression), you'd boost 650Hz-1.2kHz, which would translate to 1.3kHz - 2.4kHz?

 

[petejt]

my opinion is that a sine wave doesn't growl.

Of course not. That's why I used it as an example, broseph.

I may not remember everything perfectly from my college acoustical engineering classes (I majored in business after all), and I'm no expert. But a sine wave is a pure tone. Combine multiple sine waves and you magically have a new sound with tone, timbre, and harmonic content. That harmonic content can change the shape of the wave. And all those different waves combine to form overtones (both harmonic and non-harmonic). The right shapes and harmonic content, when combined, form a sort of "doppler effect" that you hear as "growl." The same thing happens when you tune a guitar using natural harmonics. You listen for the "beats" (doppler effect) between your reference note and the string you are tuning. The slower the beats, the more in-tune your string is, right?

Well, when you play a chord (like a perfect 5th - a power chord) with a gained-out amp, you have a sound with lots of harmonic content, and all its individual sine waves (because the building block of any sound can be broken down into its fundamental and individual sine waves) combine to create a pulsing/beating effect if the fundamental is low enough for your ear to perceive the distance (read: time) between each pulse.

While you maybe can perceive a 20,000 Hz tone, you can't perceive the time (pulse width) between each cycle of even a 1,000 Hz tone. But you can perceive the pulse width of a 100 Hertz note. All of that is why it's easier to get an amp to growl when you're hitting some gained-out power chord with a low fundamental. And some chords will growl (like a 5th) and others will not (an octave).

I don't know if compression and EQ and all that matter. Maybe they do. All I'm attempting to do is explain what "growl" is to begin with.

I've been watching Heston Blumenthal: In Search of Perfection recently where he was making the perfect fish & chips. He went to a scientist at a university to test the "crunch" of his fish batter. Fried food that sounds and feels crunchy to eat, is perceived to be more pleasant than the same food all soft and soggy. He ended up making the batter with vodka and beer so the carbon dioxide would expand and make little bubbles in the batter.

Crunch is perceived as "many pulses", in the case of the fish batter- the batter breaking sharply many times as it is broken by teeth in the mouth. I guess Crunch is a series of many pulses of upper midrange to treble frequencies that are beating, as you described.
Crunch leads to a thicker audio texture than just hearing one, two or three notes played at once. Thicker texture means a thicker "tone", which sounds heavier.

I keep thinking of the adjective "growl" as being a particular lower-middle frequency range where those frequencies are beating- interfering with each other and heard as a fast doppler effect. I guess the individual frequencies are more spaced apart (i.e. not in tune), so the beats are faster. I guess the frequencies are just a range of harmonics from the chord being played. Would that frequency range be around 500Hz?