Amp Gutshots Taboo?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ubermetaldood
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I posted pix of my SS-100, and it was purposely done not as a close up and ultra lo res so that nothing could be zoomed in on or anything like that. I pulled the chassis to inspect the build, ect... It looked for the most part done very well, although I'm fairly certain thAt Dave outsources the turret boards and soldering of component, but all in all I was proud of the job done and wanted to showcase it to my fellow rig talkers. A couple hours after my 1 pic was posted, I got bashed by 3 or 4 guys on here, one of which has commented on this thread, about how uncool it was for me to post the pic. I immediately took it down, but I felt like I was being attacked. Never got a message from Dave or Brad about it, just a bunch of guys saying I was violating Daves "Intellectual Property", one dude even saying that what I had done was illegal! The pic was from about 4 feet above the board and shrunk down to an ultra low res 88k.
The illegal bit is a total crock, but whatever. I removed it, no harm no foul. Didn't appreciate the personal attack tho. It was a bit overdone.
 
It's better to post gutshots if you think about it because everyone can see how clean and well-designed your work is. If someone wants to copy your design then they are going to find a way to do it with or without gutshots. Besides, how much original design can most of those builders have in a Jose mod? Isn't the Jose mod pretty much the standard circuitry in any Modded Marshall type amp?

Furthermore, if someone is qualified enough to copy someone's circuit design then chances are they would want to modify it to their own taste anyway. After Fender, Marshall, Dumble, Supro, Soldano, etc... is there really anything very original?
 
I don't get it.
most amps can be bought these days.....you buy one, inspect all you want, sell it.
stopping gut shots doesn't seem to be very effective other than making the builder seem kinda douchy....
 
$200 for the 1st 10 minute, $15 for each aditional minute...

24 to 36 month to complete a standard listing lol... Fuck you.
 
xzyryabx":2dtbbcr7 said:
I don't get it.
most amps can be bought these days.....you buy one, inspect all you want, sell it.
stopping gut shots doesn't seem to be very effective other than making the builder seem kinda douchy....
Amen brother. You and I are on the same page
 
Here are a million close up gut shots of one of my Henning Cherry Bomb amps as built:

http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=153502

I think the whole "intellectual property" thing is kinda silly myself... There are no real secrets in amp building - all the info is out there if you want to look. Who cares, put up all the pictures you want...

Steve
 
You bought it, do what the fuck you want with it. Anyone who is going to clone one would buy one to blueprint and clone and then sell it. They're only stopping weekend warrior solderer's who are going to do what exactly with a gut shot of a Friedman etc? :lol: :LOL:
If what a builder has done is truly unique and they can patent it, that's their only protection. Other than that it's a just tweaks of existing circuits.
 
sah5150":286jku2b said:
Here are a million close up gut shots of one of my Henning Cherry Bomb amps as built:

http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=153502

I think the whole "intellectual property" thing is kinda silly myself... There are no real secrets in amp building - all the info is out there if you want to look. Who cares, put up all the pictures you want...

Steve

Dude you build a great amp. I might have to take back what I said about them being too expensive. Still, I'd like to see a lower wattage, smaller version in the $1800 range. Think about it :thumbsup:
 
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. If I was a builder and I took months, years, if not decades to create a new design that set a new precedent or at least a new tone, I wouldn't want my designs to be copied by tons of other builders. On the flip side, I think if a consumer purchases my product, at that point it's their to do as they please. It's kinda like buying a parcel of land, and then not having the mineral rights.

Now, on the other hand, if I created my own circuit/design/ect., I would apply for a patent so that my design would be protected. I know that in my brand of choice (Mesa/Boogie), they patent their inventions like simulclass, and no other builder could produce an amp that had that feature (Bugera might have, but I don't remember). If a builder wanted to keep their design to themselves, couldn't they patent their design to protect it or retain it exclusively?

To contrast the point above, I'll stick to Mesa/Boogie as an example. Mesa got their start modifying Fender Princetons, and even now in the Mark series, it can draw it's roots to Fender designs. Just like many amp builders around these days, from Bogner to Freidman to the nearly endless list of amp builders, their flagships were based of Marshall JCM/JMP designs. So, from my point of view, they copied another builder's designs and added more features or altered certain designs to create their own product. Should they really be able to say not to make their designs known when they heavily borrowed from someone else?

I don't think it's right to restrict a consumer from posting pics of their amps. If a builder wanted to protect their design, patent it. I've posted gut shots of some of my amps to show the differences in the circuit between a Mark III and a Coliseum Mark III, and to show differences in certain revisions and to show certain mods (like the Mark III+). It was more for educational purposes than to copy a whole amp design. I think I'd be much better for all of us to be able to use things like gut shots to help educate each other and further amp designs in the future.

I don't know of many direct copies of existing amps other than Ceriatone or Bugera that have sold in big numbers, so I don't think that it would steal business away from any decent amp builder. Most of the time, either the model of the amp isn't made anymore (2203, 2204), or the copy (Bugera) is viewed as a lesser quality product. But, then there's the Soldano SLO. Many amp builders tried to copy the SLO, but they added additional features to it that made it their own. From Mesa/Boogie Dual/Triple Rectifiers, Peavey 5150/6505s, Bogner Ubershalls, they were all projects started to copy the SLO, and added Rectification or different parameters to alter the tone further. They all sold HUGE numbers, but they were never seen as a direct replacement for an SLO. In other words, the SLO is just as desirable, if not more desirable because the SLO started them all.

On a side note, getting back to the gooped-up Dumble amps, I remember a while back , the goop was removed from one of Dumble's amps (I can't remember which one specifically), but Dumble's circuit design matches Mesa/Boogie's Mark II boards almost identically. I'll see if I can find the thread, but it was pages and pages long, and I think it was on a different forum...
 
Prolly want another amp from Dave, don't wanna piss him off ... lol. :lol: :LOL:
 
sah5150":10ht23rv said:
Here are a million close up gut shots of one of my Henning Cherry Bomb amps as built:

http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=153502

I think the whole "intellectual property" thing is kinda silly myself... There are no real secrets in amp building - all the info is out there if you want to look. Who cares, put up all the pictures you want...

Steve
Bravo :thumbsup:

It's highly unlikely that anyone who wants to rip-off a design and build a clone would rely solely on pictures on the Internet. Even with hi-res shots, the detail you would need is just not there. Take Steve's for instance (figuratively speaking :D ) - great pictures with lots of detail and information. It's doubtful that you can see enough detail of the boards to copy it from pictures only. It would probably be easier to follow pictures of turret board / hand-wired amps, and easier still for mods, but would still seem to be difficult. The SLO clone build (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=156129) has incredibly detailed photos, but it would still take a lot of knowledge and effort to copy that just from the photos.

I think it's safe to say that anyone that is serious about ripping off a circuit design is probably going to buy the amp and do it in a "hands-on" fashion - not from photos on the web. Not showing gut shots is kind of like not showing real money on TV. What's the point? Everyone knows what it looks like and/or where to get the real thing if needed...

Just my .02
 
charveldan":1jduvorn said:
Prolly want another amp from Dave, don't wanna piss him of ... lol. :lol: :LOL:
Dave Shmave... For my next amp,,,I'm off to see the Wizard,,,why???
...because..because..because..because..because....because of the wonderful things he does!! :) :rock:
 
LanierP":3uqiczjr said:
charveldan":3uqiczjr said:
Prolly want another amp from Dave, don't wanna piss him of ... lol. :lol: :LOL:
Dave Shmave... For my next amp,,,I'm off to see the Wizard,,,why???
...because..because..because..because..because....because of the wonderful things he does!! :) :rock:
I would love a Wizard i'm sure, but im not paying retail.
 
Dumble and his legal scarecrow... funny

Look at it this way, even if there are clones out there, some people will still pay for the original, especially if it has a reputation. Best example of that is the Klon, which people will pay increasing amounts of money for even though everybody knows the circuit is simple and a new klone is coming out every day.
 
fretout":1i11fjgu said:
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. If I was a builder and I took months, years, if not decades to create a new design that set a new precedent or at least a new tone, I wouldn't want my designs to be copied by tons of other builders. On the flip side, I think if a consumer purchases my product, at that point it's their to do as they please. It's kinda like buying a parcel of land, and then not having the mineral rights.

Now, on the other hand, if I created my own circuit/design/ect., I would apply for a patent so that my design would be protected. I know that in my brand of choice (Mesa/Boogie), they patent their inventions like simulclass, and no other builder could produce an amp that had that feature (Bugera might have, but I don't remember). If a builder wanted to keep their design to themselves, couldn't they patent their design to protect it or retain it exclusively?

To contrast the point above, I'll stick to Mesa/Boogie as an example. Mesa got their start modifying Fender Princetons, and even now in the Mark series, it can draw it's roots to Fender designs. Just like many amp builders around these days, from Bogner to Freidman to the nearly endless list of amp builders, their flagships were based of Marshall JCM/JMP designs. So, from my point of view, they copied another builder's designs and added more features or altered certain designs to create their own product. Should they really be able to say not to make their designs known when they heavily borrowed from someone else?

I don't think it's right to restrict a consumer from posting pics of their amps. If a builder wanted to protect their design, patent it. I've posted gut shots of some of my amps to show the differences in the circuit between a Mark III and a Coliseum Mark III, and to show differences in certain revisions and to show certain mods (like the Mark III+). It was more for educational purposes than to copy a whole amp design. I think I'd be much better for all of us to be able to use things like gut shots to help educate each other and further amp designs in the future.

I don't know of many direct copies of existing amps other than Ceriatone or Bugera that have sold in big numbers, so I don't think that it would steal business away from any decent amp builder. Most of the time, either the model of the amp isn't made anymore (2203, 2204), or the copy (Bugera) is viewed as a lesser quality product. But, then there's the Soldano SLO. Many amp builders tried to copy the SLO, but they added additional features to it that made it their own. From Mesa/Boogie Dual/Triple Rectifiers, Peavey 5150/6505s, Bogner Ubershalls, they were all projects started to copy the SLO, and added Rectification or different parameters to alter the tone further. They all sold HUGE numbers, but they were never seen as a direct replacement for an SLO. In other words, the SLO is just as desirable, if not more desirable because the SLO started them all.

On a side note, getting back to the gooped-up Dumble amps, I remember a while back , the goop was removed from one of Dumble's amps (I can't remember which one specifically), but Dumble's circuit design matches Mesa/Boogie's Mark II boards almost identically. I'll see if I can find the thread, but it was pages and pages long, and I think it was on a different forum...

Another aspect of this picture is that even though some companies have been very successful cloning amps, they do nothing to take away from the sales of the amps they clone and they don't reduce peoples' desire for them either. In fact, I would venture to say that the competition is helpful. There are SLO clones for instance, and some of them sound really good. I've only tried one and though it pretty much had the sound, it couldn't duplicate the same dimension and feel of a Soldano. Unless you buy the real deal, 99.999 percent of the time you won't have 100% satisfaction until you own the real thing.

In some cases, like Metropoulos amps, you just want to bypass the real deal because they are levels above the name brand. If you want a Marshal plexi, you can get one, but if you want the BEST plexi, you get a Metropoulos. Unfortunately, they're extremely expensive and usually not readily available for purchase new, so most people get a plexi and are happy having the real deal.

The point is that amp builders should worry more about improving, expanding, marketing, and supporting their products rather than trying to police what people do with them.

It is my understanding that some of the prestigious brands we see around here (not going to name names) are not even designed by the people who make them. Apparently, Guys like George Metropoulos and Bruce Egnater are behind many of the products we enjoy so much. Perhaps there are sometimes other reasons why builders may want to protect their designs, such as in this example, to prevent the discovery that it's actually someone else's signature design. ;)
 
xzyryabx":18jj91ro said:
I don't get it.
most amps can be bought these days.....you buy one, inspect all you want, sell it.
stopping gut shots doesn't seem to be very effective other than making the builder seem kinda douchy....

I completely agree. If a manufacturer wants to copy someone's design what's stopping them from doing so. Not hard to buy one. Didn't marshall take slash's modded amp and look at what was done so they could build his sig ( same with gibson and his sig LP). Guess in the hay day marshall and mesa and fender should've gooped up their amps.
 
I do appreciate when folks post pics of their work, like Steve above. Larry is another one who not only doesn't care for pics of his work to be seen, he takes every opportunity to post pics of the guts himself (including hosting pics on his website).

The bottom line is no one can control what you do with a product after you buy it. If you don't want people seeing inside it, then don't sell them to others. Anyone could buy an amp and take it apart. When you start selling your brand at Guitar Center, someone could buy it, document it, then take it back a week later and get their money back. Hell, they'd probably let you take the chassis out in the store if you asked nicely... :D

I don't get it. The ironic part is all the builders got their start by copying circuits and looking at the guts, schematics, etc...that they don't want circulated of their amps. Next thing you know you'll be told you can't use the amp for country or it can't be played on Tuesday.

Mesa owns or owned patents for half the features on these amps anyway and could sue just about everyone out there if they wanted to, yet you don't see them making a fuss about it.
 
Soldano HR100+ , I own it and i'll post it.
That's what I think of posting amp gut shots.






Had a SLO but sold it , but i want another one really bad now.

 
JB6464":1s8gnic9 said:
Soldano HR100+ , I own it and i'll post it.
That's what I think of posting amp gut shots.






Had a SLO but sold it , but i want another one really bad now.


By the looks of it, I think they could make the Hot Rod smaller and more lightweight and STILL have plenty of room between the components.
 
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