Amp schematic experts - What's really in each amp?

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saxxamafone

saxxamafone

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I've always been curious what the DNA is of various amps but i'm not a tech guy.

We've all heard the 2ch rectos have the exact same preamp as a SLO.

Would be great to get a list going of what makes up the DNA of various amps.
I wonder how many of them are based off modded 2203 circuits.

Some amps I'm curious to know more about are:

  • Bogner Uberschall (apparently power section is 2203 based). Is it more marshall based or recto
  • Framus Cobra (I've heard a lot of SLO influence in this)
  • Diezel Herbert (no idea what's in here)
  • Wizard MLT (more modded Jubilee?)
 
This has become kinda the main thing I research and talk about on youtube sometimes. The hard part is other than the Framus Cobra, it is near impossible to find accurate, not falsified, schematics of the other amps you mentioned. And for obvious reasons, these boutique manufacturers are really selling a lot of fluff, no offense, they are great sounding amps meticulously designed, researched, tested, etc. but for the most part they have a lot of similarities in fundamental design that they probably don't want to be too obvious to the consumer. These amps tend to be more specific to a certain designer's ear and preferences which is also why you get a lot more polarized opinions on them - I think just about everyone can appreciate that a common JCM800 is a good sounding amp for example, but on the other hand you have people who have saved up for years to finally buy an SLO100 and then end up not liking it and moving on to the next thing.

There is a great website that goes over some technical stuff, which you may already be aware of but worth mentioning anyway: https://robrobinette.com/Amp_Stuff.htm

I think it's important to understand the history of the amp designs, to cover what makes them unique and how paths diverged from that original starting point (frequently, the 50s era Fender Bassman, Princeton, or Deluxe which are themselves based on an RCA amp design document).

Let me give an example: People love to throw around the term "plexi" in marketing material. Have a low to mid-gain channel on your amp with a tone stack positioned after a few gain stages? Call it a plexi. Say it's warm and plexi like. Glassy. Whatever buzz word you think will sell things, and it'll get repeated continuously in online forums by people who have never even owned the amp in question for themselves, because they think they know what it sounds like from youtube clips.

But what is a "plexi" sound really? Because it's a pretty unique amp, having two separate channels in parallel which can be combined with a jumper. I can't think of any modern amp design besides the Marshall Vintage Modern that truly has a signal path where the gain stages are in parallel and then mixed together in the same way as a true JTM/1987/1959 type preamp. So if your idea of a "plexi" sound is a jumpered 1959 Super Lead circuit, you're going to be at least a little disappointed by a cascading gain stage design on a modern amp's "plexi-like" channel because that channel is a compromise somewhere in voicing.

In contrast, put the tone stack right after the input stage and call it a "fender-y" clean channel. $$$, Done.

---

I know I didn't answer your specific questions, sorry. I don't have a schematic for the Wizard or Diezel Herbert, although with the Herbert Mk1 ranking very high on my personal list of favorites I would love to see the insides of it, but I don't have the time or skill to accurately draw up a schematic from the physical amp even though I own one. I do have an Uberschall schematic though I admit I haven't quite broken into the Recto/SLO/5150/Uber can of worms just yet. What I see in a 30 second look is 4 gain stages on the drive channel with a cathode follower tone stack very similar to your JCM800-like design (which has 3 stages +cathode follower), and the clean just 2 gain stages with a plate driven tone stack, and both channels have the tone stack after the clipping stages. Fixed bias power amp but power amps are something I am still learning about so I'm definitely not the person to ask about that (yet, I hope). Long story short, yeah, it's pretty similar looking to a JCM800 2203 with an extra gain stage in there, some different voicing and biasing, EQ is quite a bit different with a log/audio pot on the treble control instead of just the bass, so that probably changes the feel quite a bit.

I do think a lot of this stuff comes down to the idea that your average player will just plug straight into the amp and set all EQ to noon to start out, so just an example, if you had the same EQ circuit on two different amps, and one of them you made the treble linear pot 500k and another 250k, and the user sets them both to halfway to test the amp out, it's going to sound very different because one will measure ~250k and the other ~125k, and we haven't even made any changes to the cap values and such. Technically speaking you *should* be able to get both amps to sound identical if you set the 500k treble pot amp to noon, and the 250k treble pot to max. But we as players, even the best of us, use our eyes instead of ears a lot and I think people naturally don't want to set the treble to max, so the user experience will be very different even if you put both of these amps side by side in a guitar store. So extrapolate how tiny of a change that would be by the hundreds of available amps and forums, plus some classic discussion board misinformation and you've got a lot of "mythical" amp ideas floating around tied to words like "warm" and "tight" and "punchy" haha.

Not sure if this counts as "power amp" or not, but one of the things that makes the 2-ch Recto so interesting is the location of the Presence control on the Red channel. Whether Rev C/D/E/F/G, the red channel presence control is located decidedly in the preamp EQ control area, instead the power amp like the Orange mode. The Uberschall for comparison has it set up more like the Orange channel, in the feedback loop (like a JCM800, or most other amps really). This single feature, of the Red channel not having a feedback loop and the presence control being more of an "upper mids" control is probably the number one thing most people hear when they think "Recto." However, because it's called a "presence" control on the front panel, people make the mistake of thinking there's something about the Recto power amp that makes that sound. I mean, it factors in of course, but I think everyone who has every played a 2ch recto in real life can clearly hear the difference between the Red and Orange presence controls (even if everything else is equal) and that's why. I haven't seen this setup on any SLO100 schematic either so I don't think you can really say a 2ch Recto and an SLO have the "exact same preamp."

Ok, I've rambled enough. Thanks for reading, please correct me if I said something inaccurate. Cheers
 
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I've always been curious what the DNA is of various amps but i'm not a tech guy.

We've all heard the 2ch rectos have the exact same preamp as a SLO.

Would be great to get a list going of what makes up the DNA of various amps.
I wonder how many of them are based off modded 2203 circuits.

Some amps I'm curious to know more about are:

  • Bogner Uberschall (apparently power section is 2203 based). Is it more marshall based or recto
  • Framus Cobra (I've heard a lot of SLO influence in this)
  • Diezel Herbert (no idea what's in here)
  • Wizard MLT (more modded Jubilee?)
Amp designs are very sensitive to the transformer design and the negative feedback circuit IMHO impacts the overall tone than a few components anywhere else in the circuit. If you look at the rectos and 5150s those areas make a huge difference. Same with Cameron Jose vs Friedman or Ceriatones more “generic” depth controls. The Bogner XTC and Uber all have unique NFB designs
 
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I grabbed this quite a while back off an amp site. No clue who the author is, but I seem to recall it being FourT6.. Doesn't really jive with the Fortin comments, so I could be wrong about that.

Anyways, some good info here whatever the source.


Jose Arredondo:
classic schematic is a super lead with an extra preamp tube and the infamous "jose master"
each input has an extra cascaded gain stage
basically 3 stages + cathode follower using one plexi input (like a slightly hotrodded jcm 800)
the "jose master" is, at first a master volume, which allows you to crank the gain knob without cranking volume, like in the jmp/jcm master volume series, but the special thing about it is the zener diodes, which gives an extra bite

Suhr x Golub:
the Golub Lead mod is supposedly a variation on the Suhr/Custom Audio OD100/3+SE circuit
the Suhr would require at least one extra tube for the gain circuit, one more for a tube buffered loop
not much familiar with the Golub version, but if it's any close to the Suhr, than must have lots of low mids, bass and a ton of saturation
that's the real Doug Aldrich tone everybody is always searching here
fat, compressed, but really punchy with tons of sustain

Cameron:
his Jose seems to be a heavily tweaked version of the original Jose
lot more gain, tighter and heavier low end
only would require extra tube if you wanna maintain parallel inputs, like on the original Jose
so also 3 stages + cathode follower
I suppose the high gain x low gain thing is about the engaging the diodes on the master volume, but someone might correct me on this
the Aldrich mod is 4 gain stages, no cathode follower, so no extra tubes, unless you want a tube buffered loop or dedicated clean
not having a cathode follower changes a lot more than actually having the extra gain stage, for my ears
you get a tighter picking response, more in your face dense mids, a bit like a Splawn mod
I usually prefer the openness and smoother compression of a cathode followered amp, but I love the extra articulation of not having one, and that's probably why Doug uses it for the leads only
I have no idea about the other Cameron mods, like the ocean and the atomica

FJA
I have no idea what Jerry does as well... but by the sound, I'd guess he adds gain on first stages and clamps a lot of the noise and fizz out
his amps seems to have that "punch in the face, then step back" thing
maybe he doesn't get the credit he deserves on the marshall mods cause he's been the "peavey guy" for a long time

Fortin
Mike is one of the coolest guys on the amp mod market
he's kind of a mad scientist and he's always experimentating new things on his mods, but the guy truly knows his work
he seems to be quite obsessed on the circuit details and the materials he use
loops, fancy depth controls, ultra high gain channels capable of cleaning up like a non-pushed plexi
his mods are a bit over the top for me, but are probably some of the most versatile and complete mods out there
if I ever go to canada, I'll be definitely getting something from him

Friedman
Dave makes some interesting stuff as well
and his also quite obsessed with the details, like capacitor brands, transformers, etc
the Marsha/Brown Eye amp is also Jose based, being 3 stage + CF on the brown eye mode and adding an extra stage in the front for the hairy brown eye mode, so the gain knob actually comes after the second stage (not sure how it affects the control capability)
saturation switch is supposedly a "jose" diode on the master
the Naked amp, and also the Budda Superdrive, designed by him, were based off the Naylor Superdrive 60
they have a quite peculiar (JCM based?) preamp section
different values from the usual marshall-voiced amps, though, but still 3 stage + cathode follower
bright cap/resistor filters before actual coupling caps is something quite weird that must have some very noticeable effect on how the amps sound
gain control seems to be after second stage as well
I have no idea what he does in the power amp, though, but probably a modern sounding negative feedback configuration and the naylor presence, which works differently from the regular marshall presence
tube buffered loop or dedicated clean channel would require extra tube in both cases
hairy brown eye mode requires extra tube (brown eye only won't)

Bray
not sure about the difference between his mods
but checking pictures of my friends JTM45 and some plexis around internet, I only noticed that he installs a post phase inverter master volume and gets the inputs jumped internally
he also replaces a few cathode capacitors (do not confuse with a cathode follower) with some sort of oil cap, but I'm not sure if he changes the values (which would change the amps voicing)
and he adds a cap to the v1b gain stage as well, and that must boost the gain and picking response... depending on the value it might boost upper mids as well
noticed some swapped components, but they had stock values, so I'm not sure Bray did these changes
everything else in the amps was stock
so basically: PPIMV control, jumpered input, some mysterious mojo cap and a bit of gain boost
his mods are probably the most natural Marshall sounding ones, as he just tries to achieve what a cranked marshalls sounds like with very small changes
no hair metal monster, just pure classic marshall tone

Bogner

probably one of my favorites
not sure what he did in his Marshall mods, but doubt it was much different from his amps designs
the shiva and blue channel of the ecstasy follow the idea of the jose, but without diodes
they're voiced to sound fatter and warmer than a JCM 800
the red channel adds one stage, driving it into high gain level
the uberschall doesn't fall so far from the tree, but it has a very modern preamp voicing, with tons of gain and low end
the power section has lots of mad science in it, with preset depth and presence tricks in a way that the presence pot act completely different from a regular amp, so it tweaks up to midrange levels
a shiva or blue channel circuit could be done on a JCM/Plexi without messing a lot and wouldn't require extra tubes (unless you want the shiva clean as well)
an uberschall preamp mod on a marshall without the extra gain stage of the uber would be a lot like an Egnater Seminar

Diezel
only familiar with the Einstein and VH4S
I have no idea what's going on inside the einstein, but tonewise, it's pretty close to the vh4s, but without all the dedicated channels and controls
talking about the mega and lead channels only (ch1 mode3 and channel 2 on the einstein, ch3 and ch4 on the vh4s)
first thing is that a lot of the diezel tone comes from the power amp and the materials
the ch3 and ch4 sound very close to each other, the ch4 being more bassy and saturated (adds one gain stage)
the ch3 is already very saturated as it is, so people tend to prefer it over the lead channel
circuit is actually a lot like the shiva and some of the jose children, which was a big surprise for me
very small tweaks and voltage differences just makes it a completely different sounding (pre)amp
it's a lot more saturated and much tighter sounding
very different crunch going on in the mids, but it's also a VERY mid heavy amp, not the scooped metal monster some people fear
Peter's mods on marshall were VERY extensive, almost like his later amps, but a ch3 type mod would be possible and not really a huge work
I doubt he's accepting mod jobs these days, though
my bandmate built a ch3 based circuit in a MXR sized pedal with 2 tubes laid inside it
it's the best preamp I ever heard in person, and gets pretty close to the amp
he did the same circuit in a cheap rack preamp I have, but mine sounds more like a shiva without the boost switch engaged than like a vh4
no near as much saturation as his pedal or the diezel, but still gets pretty high gain with a proper booster
I might record something if I find my interface

Splawn

his amps are also pretty close to his old mods
the rewires the cathode follower as a 4th gain stage and tweaks all the others for a different less mid spikey voicing
the also adds a lot of switches to tweak the amps voicings and gain levels
he usually adds a solid state loop, so no extra tube unless you want dedicated clean channel
as I said before, no cathode follower, so it's a cutting and articulated hot rodded tone
not really a round souped up 70's marshall tone, but more of a hard rock edgy thing
tons of articulation

Soldano
his circuit changed the face of modern distortion
he added a couple tubes, gain stage and a tube buffered loop
well... not much different from the other guys... but he came up with a different idea for hot rodding a marshall
he did add a ton of gain to the regular stages like some of the others, but then he added an almost clean stage right in the middle (what they called "cold clipping")
this stage adds very little gain compared to the others (even a stock marshall stage), but it boosts the sustain and compression in a different way that doesn't oversature the tone, putting things in a new conception of clear high gain, instead of the midrangy, grainy and saturated 80's hotrodded marshall tone
that's pretty much what mesa, hughes & kettner and framus copied in the rectifier, triamp, dragon and cobra amps
this and the higher quality parts combined with 6L6 tubes instead of EL34's changed everything
as a marshall mod, you can only do a soldano mod if you want the crunch channel only (3 stages, and no cold clipping stage) and no loop... but the classic soldano tone is the lead channel, so you need at least one extra tube
 
This has become kinda the main thing I research and talk about on youtube sometimes. The hard part is other than the Framus Cobra, it is near impossible to find accurate, not falsified, schematics of the other amps you mentioned. And for obvious reasons, these boutique manufacturers are really selling a lot of fluff, no offense, they are great sounding amps meticulously designed, researched, tested, etc. but for the most part they have a lot of similarities in fundamental design that they probably don't want to be too obvious to the consumer. These amps tend to be more specific to a certain designer's ear and preferences which is also why you get a lot more polarized opinions on them - I think just about everyone can appreciate that a common JCM800 is a good sounding amp for example, but on the other hand you have people who have saved up for years to finally buy an SLO100 and then end up not liking it and moving on to the next thing.

There is a great website that goes over some technical stuff, which you may already be aware of but worth mentioning anyway: https://robrobinette.com/Amp_Stuff.htm

I think it's important to understand the history of the amp designs, to cover what makes them unique and how paths diverged from that original starting point (frequently, the 50s era Fender Bassman, Princeton, or Deluxe which are themselves based on an RCA amp design document).

Let me give an example: People love to throw around the term "plexi" in marketing material. Have a low to mid-gain channel on your amp with a tone stack positioned after a few gain stages? Call it a plexi. Say it's warm and plexi like. Glassy. Whatever buzz word you think will sell things, and it'll get repeated continuously in online forums by people who have never even owned the amp in question for themselves, because they think they know what it sounds like from youtube clips.

But what is a "plexi" sound really? Because it's a pretty unique amp, having two separate channels in parallel which can be combined with a jumper. I can't think of any modern amp design besides the Marshall Vintage Modern that truly has a signal path where the gain stages are in parallel and then mixed together in the same way as a true JTM/1987/1959 type preamp. So if your idea of a "plexi" sound is a jumpered 1959 Super Lead circuit, you're going to be at least a little disappointed by a cascading gain stage design on a modern amp's "plexi-like" channel because that channel is a compromise somewhere in voicing.

In contrast, put the tone stack right after the input stage and call it a "fender-y" clean channel. $$$, Done.

---

I know I didn't answer your specific questions, sorry. I don't have a schematic for the Wizard or Diezel Herbert, although with the Herbert Mk1 ranking very high on my personal list of favorites I would love to see the insides of it, but I don't have the time or skill to accurately draw up a schematic from the physical amp even though I own one. I do have an Uberschall schematic though I admit I haven't quite broken into the Recto/SLO/5150/Uber can of worms just yet. What I see in a 30 second look is 4 gain stages on the drive channel with a cathode follower tone stack very similar to your JCM800-like design (which has 3 stages +cathode follower), and the clean just 2 gain stages with a plate driven tone stack, and both channels have the tone stack after the clipping stages. Fixed bias power amp but power amps are something I am still learning about so I'm definitely not the person to ask about that (yet, I hope). Long story short, yeah, it's pretty similar looking to a JCM800 2203 with an extra gain stage in there, some different voicing and biasing, EQ is quite a bit different with a log/audio pot on the treble control instead of just the bass, so that probably changes the feel quite a bit.

I do think a lot of this stuff comes down to the idea that your average player will just plug straight into the amp and set all EQ to noon to start out, so just an example, if you had the same EQ circuit on two different amps, and one of them you made the treble linear pot 500k and another 250k, and the user sets them both to halfway to test the amp out, it's going to sound very different because one will measure ~250k and the other ~125k, and we haven't even made any changes to the cap values and such. Technically speaking you *should* be able to get both amps to sound identical if you set the 500k treble pot amp to noon, and the 250k treble pot to max. But we as players, even the best of us, use our eyes instead of ears a lot and I think people naturally don't want to set the treble to max, so the user experience will be very different even if you put both of these amps side by side in a guitar store. So extrapolate how tiny of a change that would be by the hundreds of available amps and forums, plus some classic discussion board misinformation and you've got a lot of "mythical" amp ideas floating around tied to words like "warm" and "tight" and "punchy" haha.

Not sure if this counts as "power amp" or not, but one of the things that makes the 2-ch Recto so interesting is the location of the Presence control on the Red channel. Whether Rev C/D/E/F/G, the red channel presence control is located decidedly in the preamp EQ control area, instead the power amp like the Orange mode. The Uberschall for comparison has it set up more like the Orange channel, in the feedback loop (like a JCM800, or most other amps really). This single feature, of the Red channel not having a feedback loop and the presence control being more of an "upper mids" control is probably the number one thing most people hear when they think "Recto." However, because it's called a "presence" control on the front panel, people make the mistake of thinking there's something about the Recto power amp that makes that sound. I mean, it factors in of course, but I think everyone who has every played a 2ch recto in real life can clearly hear the difference between the Red and Orange presence controls (even if everything else is equal) and that's why. I haven't seen this setup on any SLO100 schematic either so I don't think you can really say a 2ch Recto and an SLO have the "exact same preamp."

Ok, I've rambled enough. Thanks for reading, please correct me if I said something inaccurate. Cheers
:love::love::love:
 
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