Amp tinkerers... Discovered the angriest-sounding capacitor

[JakeAC5253]

What Ive found to be neat is taking the idea and making it a hybrid that takes advantage of both worlds. Use the best sounding caps in series and the worst sounding caps going to ground. You'll thank me later

EDIT: just dont ever use electrolytics outside of power filtering! They are useless to the point that they do nothing but damage the tone.

I've been thinking about that lately; bad sounding caps are grainy, harsh, fizzy so you want that to leak to ground. Good sounding caps apparently leave through less of that considered bad parts of the tone. Going by that reasoning: what would you consider bad about electrolytics ?
I bought an RK100 recently that has electrolytic cathode bypass on the first two stages...

Giga

On the whole I consider them to be noisy cheap approximations of a capacitor. Their tolerance ranges have improved in the last few years to be 20% tolerance, which means they used to be even worse before that! By today's standards, 20% tolerance is pitiful. Furthermore, Electros can become leaky and leak DC current into a part of a circuit which should be capacitor isolated from DC. One of the fundamental properties of a capacitor are that it blocks DC current, which since Electros have a tendency to be leaky, makes them not really effective as a capacitor at all. They are cheap and allow for lots of capacitance in a relatively small space, which makes them great for power filtering applications. Due to their poor tolerance, their effective values can be anywhere in a large range of capacitance really, which makes their use in a tonal application null.

YMMV

 

[Meathead]

One time I saw a Death Metal band that had a cool idea. The singer held a cat near the mic. Once in a while he would pull it's tail, to make stuff sound more evil and mean. He was all scratched up and bleeding, which made him look mean and evil. So that was cool.

 

[Vrad]

Sometimes when I hit a chord and it doesn't sound angry enough I approach the mic and make a 'grrrrrrrrrrrr' sound at the same time. That scares people pretty good.

My voice isn't all that scary... I use this instead.

 

[FourT6and2]

Old thread, sorry. But relevant for me. I'm about to start a build of a Jose/Cameron-inspired high-gainer and the two caps I'm considering are either Mallory 150s or these IC/CDE MPWs. 150s are polyester and MPW are polypropylene. I hate the Orange Drop 715/716s. So I'm wondering if I'll like these MPWs...

 

[fusedbrain]

715/716's are polypropylene as well, so you'll probably hate the IC MPW's too.
For a Marshall style build, I'd stick with the 150's, although I think there are even better options.
I like the Mojo Dijon's and the newer Sozo or Synergy or whatever they're called are a good choice as well. Dave Friedman seems to like those in the BE100, if that has any relevance to your build.

 

[FourT6and2]

715/716's are polypropylene as well, so you'll probably hate the IC MPW's too.
For a Marshall style build, I'd stick with the 150's, although I think there are even better options.
I like the Mojo Dijon's and the newer Sozo or Synergy or whatever they're called are a good choice as well. Dave Friedman seems to like those in the BE100, if that has any relevance to your build.

I hate Sozo as well, and I've been told by the experts over at the Metro Forum that TAD/Mojo are crap lol.

I know Mallory 150 are a solid choice. It's just that the 715/716s I've tried in the past have always been bright, harsh, and gritty. If that equals "aggressive, modern, and pissed off" to others, then I definitely have a different idea of what good tone is lol

My KSR amps and my Chupacabra all have Mallory 150s, so go figure.

 

[fusedbrain]

Heh heh, you said experts and Metro forum in the same sentence lol

 

[FourT6and2]

Heh heh, you said experts and Metro forum in the same sentence lol

 

[scottosan]

It really depends where in the circuit that are used in

 

[CrazyNutz]

Old thread, sorry. But relevant for me. I'm about to start a build of a Jose/Cameron-inspired high-gainer and the two caps I'm considering are either Mallory 150s or these IC/CDE MPWs. 150s are polyester and MPW are polypropylene. I hate the Orange Drop 715/716s. So I'm wondering if I'll like these MPWs...

Mallory 150's are my go to cap. I typically hate anything polypropylene, except I might use one or two in certain stages. SoZo nexgen are great in the tone stack. I have found all these caps can have benefit certain parts of a circuit.

For a marshall type amp like you're building, I would do mallory 150's for all coupling, sozo nexgen in the tone stack, and Nichicon 50v electrolytic PM series in the cathode bypass spots., and ARS in the filtering.

 

[FourT6and2]

Old thread, sorry. But relevant for me. I'm about to start a build of a Jose/Cameron-inspired high-gainer and the two caps I'm considering are either Mallory 150s or these IC/CDE MPWs. 150s are polyester and MPW are polypropylene. I hate the Orange Drop 715/716s. So I'm wondering if I'll like these MPWs...

Mallory 150's are my go to cap. I typically hate anything polypropylene, except I might use one or two in certain stages. SoZo nexgen are great in the tone stack. I have found all these caps can have benefit certain parts of a circuit.

For a marshall type amp like you're building, I would do mallory 150's for all coupling, sozo nexgen in the tone stack, and Nichicon 50v electrolytic PM series in the cathode bypass spots., and ARS in the filtering.

Electrolytics for the cathodes? I've seen 'em on V1a sometimes, but I don't know why they are used that way... All the amps I have use film caps in all coupling/decoupling positions. I built a Super Lead years ago with an electrolytic in V1a. But only because the original circuit called for it.

Why ARS for the filters? I have a couple F&T on hand already. Same same, but different? Too bad neither company publishes the specs on their caps. Usually that's not a good sign...

I'm not a huge fan of SoZo to be honest. I can't even keep track which SoZo are the real SoZo, what with the company split and all that. Too much of headache.

At this point I have: Mallory 150s and IC CDE on hand. So I'll use one or the other.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Old thread, sorry. But relevant for me. I'm about to start a build of a Jose/Cameron-inspired high-gainer and the two caps I'm considering are either Mallory 150s or these IC/CDE MPWs. 150s are polyester and MPW are polypropylene. I hate the Orange Drop 715/716s. So I'm wondering if I'll like these MPWs...

Mallory 150's are my go to cap. I typically hate anything polypropylene, except I might use one or two in certain stages. SoZo nexgen are great in the tone stack. I have found all these caps can have benefit certain parts of a circuit.

For a marshall type amp like you're building, I would do mallory 150's for all coupling, sozo nexgen in the tone stack, and Nichicon 50v electrolytic PM series in the cathode bypass spots., and ARS in the filtering.

Electrolytics for the cathodes? I've seen 'em on V1a sometimes, but I don't know why they are used that way... All the amps I have use film caps in all coupling/decoupling positions. I built a Super Lead years ago with an electrolytic in V1a. But only because the original circuit called for it.

Why ARS for the filters? I have a couple F&T on hand already. Same same, but different? Too bad neither company publishes the specs on their caps. Usually that's not a good sign...

I'm not a huge fan of SoZo to be honest. I can't even keep track which SoZo are the real SoZo, what with the company split and all that. Too much of headache.

At this point I have: Mallory 150s and IC CDE on hand. So I'll use one or the other.

Look at anything Dave Friedman builds and you'll see 50v Nichicon electrolytic PM's on every cathode baypass (0.68uf since all of his stuff is marshall based). I've done extensive testing with different caps here, and these give a low-mid grind and complexity like no other.

I've used F&T on several builds, and while they are reliable, they have a unique character to the sound I'm not that fond of, I have a stash of them too, I will use them since I have them on hand. ARS I like all around sound great (I'm one of those guy's that can tell the difference in sound between manufactures), easy dudes to buy from too, just call em up.

Since you have mallory 150's on hand id go that route, or just experiment, why not.

 

[FourT6and2]

Old thread, sorry. But relevant for me. I'm about to start a build of a Jose/Cameron-inspired high-gainer and the two caps I'm considering are either Mallory 150s or these IC/CDE MPWs. 150s are polyester and MPW are polypropylene. I hate the Orange Drop 715/716s. So I'm wondering if I'll like these MPWs...

Mallory 150's are my go to cap. I typically hate anything polypropylene, except I might use one or two in certain stages. SoZo nexgen are great in the tone stack. I have found all these caps can have benefit certain parts of a circuit.

For a marshall type amp like you're building, I would do mallory 150's for all coupling, sozo nexgen in the tone stack, and Nichicon 50v electrolytic PM series in the cathode bypass spots., and ARS in the filtering.

Electrolytics for the cathodes? I've seen 'em on V1a sometimes, but I don't know why they are used that way... All the amps I have use film caps in all coupling/decoupling positions. I built a Super Lead years ago with an electrolytic in V1a. But only because the original circuit called for it.

Why ARS for the filters? I have a couple F&T on hand already. Same same, but different? Too bad neither company publishes the specs on their caps. Usually that's not a good sign...

I'm not a huge fan of SoZo to be honest. I can't even keep track which SoZo are the real SoZo, what with the company split and all that. Too much of headache.

At this point I have: Mallory 150s and IC CDE on hand. So I'll use one or the other.

Look at anything Dave Friedman builds and you'll see 50v Nichicon electrolytic PM's on every cathode baypass (0.68uf since all of his stuff is marshall based). I've done extensive testing with different caps here, and these give a low-mid grind and complexity like no other.

I've used F&T on several builds, and while they are reliable, they have a unique character to the sound I'm not that fond of, I have a stash of them too, I will use them since I have them on hand. ARS I like all around sound great (I'm one of those guy's that can tell the difference in sound between manufactures), easy dudes to buy from too, just call em up.

Since you have mallory 150's on hand id go that route, or just experiment, why not.

Filter caps on the HT supply can affect how the amp sounds? Like the tone of the amp? Where do I get ARS caps? Nobody sells them. And ARS doesn't sell to the general public, they're a wholesale distributor. There are some on eBay, but screw that.

 

[JTyson]

I sent Dave Friedman a Metro SL clone and had him kitchen sink the thing, he said he did not like the Sozo caps at all, pulled them all out
and replaced them with whatever he liked, not sure what that was though

 

[CrazyNutz]

I sent Dave Friedman a Metro SL clone and had him kitchen sink the thing, he said he did not like the Sozo caps at all, pulled them all out
and replaced them with whatever he liked, not sure what that was though

That would have been the older SoZo's they did suck. The SoZo nexgen are great, as a matter of fact Dave uses them in his amps now, but they are under a different Label, "Synergy Royal Mustard" The guy over at vlavestorm.com confirmed that these are the same cap as SoZo nexgen.

 

[Rdodson]

Yes big improvement with the Synergies. I really want to play a Bogner 20th with the new Synergy nexgens because my only complaint with that amp was smearing in the gain. I ended up backing off the gain and increasing the volume to compensate but then you are losing part of what makes that amp cool, and it is a different animal. I understand that the new caps have really fixed that issue. I'll tell you the BE100 has zero of that going on, the gain structure is pristine without that gritty, fizzy, lispy thing. I have a clip of my old 20th in the Red channel where you can hear what I'm describing.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Yes big improvement with the Synergies. I really want to play a Bogner 20th with the new Synergy nexgens because my only complaint with that amp was smearing in the gain. I ended up backing off the gain and increasing the volume to compensate but then you are losing part of what makes that amp cool, and it is a different animal. I understand that the new caps have really fixed that issue. I'll tell you the BE100 has zero of that going on, the gain structure is pristine without that gritty, fizzy, lispy thing. I have a clip of my old 20th in the Red channel where you can hear what I'm describing.

Yes the Synergy/SoZo nexgens are very clear, they would be a massive improvement over the Wima's (i think that's what in there) that Bogner used.

Yes the BE100 is great, I've studied that circuit extensively, and modded my metro superlead 100 to the BE. You don't get any fizzy's with the BE because Dave did a great job strategically placing 500pf plate bypass caps in the right spots, and limiting bandwidth early on in the preamp. Really the amp sounds so refined because its like having a shelving EQ built in.

 

[FourT6and2]

Yes big improvement with the Synergies. I really want to play a Bogner 20th with the new Synergy nexgens because my only complaint with that amp was smearing in the gain. I ended up backing off the gain and increasing the volume to compensate but then you are losing part of what makes that amp cool, and it is a different animal. I understand that the new caps have really fixed that issue. I'll tell you the BE100 has zero of that going on, the gain structure is pristine without that gritty, fizzy, lispy thing. I have a clip of my old 20th in the Red channel where you can hear what I'm describing.

Yes the Synergy/SoZo nexgens are very clear, they would be a massive improvement over the Wima's (i think that's what in there) that Bogner used.

Yes the BE100 is great, I've studied that circuit extensively, and modded my metro superlead 100 to the BE. You don't get any fizzy's with the BE because Dave did a great job strategically placing 500pf plate bypass caps in the right spots, and limiting bandwidth early on in the preamp. Really the amp sounds so refined because its like having a shelving EQ built in.

That's exactly why I don't like his amps. Too dark. Too round. Too loose. Too polite and smooth. Everybody's got their preference of course. Mine? Angry, mean, growly, snarly. That doesn't mean fizzy or harsh or grating. But all the Friedman amps I've played have been on the opposite end of the spectrum. So far, all the Cameron amps I've heard are closer to what I like. And the Chupacabra comes the closest out of anything I've owned. This amp I'm building now will be heavily based on that, but with a number of tweaks.

 

[fusedbrain]

In the tests I've done comparing the same value electrolytic vs film cap in cathode bypass applications, I've found that the electrolytic will give that dark round and smooth sound you describe vs the film caps being far more focused punchy. Almost as if the electrolytic was 1uf and the film was .68uf, for example.
I would definitely recommend film in the cathode bypass spots for your build, given the type of tone you're going for.

 

[marcus262]

That's exactly why I don't like his amps. Too dark. Too round. Too loose. Too polite and smooth. Everybody's got their preference of course. Mine? Angry, mean, growly, snarly. That doesn't mean fizzy or harsh or grating. But all the Friedman amps I've played have been on the opposite end of the spectrum. So far, all the Cameron amps I've heard are closer to what I like. And the Chupacabra comes the closest out of anything I've owned. This amp I'm building now will be heavily based on that, but with a number of tweaks.

Don't mean to bomb the thread about capacitors,
just wanted to say thank you FourT6and2 for your posts about amps and your tone quest in general.
It has really helped me in finding a better sound, since it seems we share the same preference in how an amp should sound.
Your clips od Chupacabra and Diezel sound great, don't know how many times I have listened to them.
Eventually I modded a 5w amp to yeti preamp specs and so far it is the best preamp scheme I found on a hot rodded Marshall.

Could you maybe share your tweaks of Chupa, if you don't mind me asking.

Thanks again.
and sorry for this out of topic post.