Awesome tone = less gain stages?

[degenaro]

I think that we are getting minimal controls on an amp confused with gain stages.

I have heard some killer sounds generated by amps that had minimal gain stages and killer sounds by amps that are just flame throwers. I think the real thing here is that there is more ways to skin a cat. Im one of those weird guys who likes both type of tones but I think the most important thing to remember is that if a tone works, it works. It kills me when people come up with formulas as to what is BEST and I find that is very limiting IMHO.

I won't say I've tried tons of amps, but I've tried various Mesa's, Carvin Legacy, and my DSL100 (all have several preamp tubes) - if I used a hotplate with those, cranked the master to 10 and adjusted gain to taste, I never got what I consider a good tone. I'm not saying they didn't sound good otherwise, just not with the master on 10 - that's what kinda lead me to how I think about the PI and gain stages, and that's what helped me figure out what I actually like to get out of an amp.

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

 

[Gainfreak]

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

you are pretty much saying what I was trying to say but with better articulation.

 

[kannibul]

More gain stages means more gain, unless the maker is bleeding off a LOT of gain.

It means that if you have a high-gain amp at lower volumes, when you turn it up, it gets more gain, and evantually gets mud.

A great example of this is my rebuilt Valve Junior.

At low volume, sounds good with the gain past 3:00. As I turn up the amp and get more volume, I get more drive out of the power tube, and have to knock the gain back to keep it "clean" sounding.

It still sounds good with everything on 10, but, it sounds better with the gain backed off.


How people can like amps like the XXX are beyond my ability to understand - it's all zzzzzzz...


I even came to the same conclusion between the JCM 800 and 1959SLP curcuit. The main difference was the JCM 800 is darker and a bit more compressed - but, really, there wasn't THAT much of a difference in the amount of gain on tap - compared to the 1959SLP w/ PPIMV.

The PPIMV, due to the phase inverter contribution, equals out in terms of gain, but it sounds different (better actually).

I left the PPIMV in place for the JCM 800 version, and, really it didn't change things much wether it was used or maxed (and basically out of the circuit)


Anyhow...I converted it back to the 1959SLP, and sold it...because I didn't want to go through and rewire the whole front end to get what I want...

 

[Telephant]

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

Werd. Redrol, to me, it sounds like you're coming to the conclusion that you are Non Master Volume kinda guy. Whether its a JMP, AC30, or a Tweed Deluxe, when you crank that sumbitch up, it sounds incredible.

Here comes the obvious...: what makes them especially awesome to me, is the dynamics these amps have. Being able to control the amount of gain you have from your guitar volume kicks all kinds of ass. Having a fat clean tone turn into a gloriously massive crunch with the twist of the guitar volume knob is what blues and old school rock players seem to prefer. I learned this style from playing my TSL when I was young, because I channel switching got old, so I decided to stay on the crunch channel the entire time, and use a tubescreamer for heavier rhythms and lead.

Another factor is that Non Master Volume amps have less compression than most high gainers. Both will smack you in the face when you turn them up, but NMV's smack you in a different way. They have that super open, ready to explode sound. Not that I dont enjoy high gainers... Like the Herbert or XTC. But they dont do the NMV thing and they're not meant too.

Different kinds of amps cater to different styles of players.

 

[degenaro]

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

you are pretty much saying what I was trying to say but with better articulation.

I dunno about articulation...who speaks English as their first language!!!!
But yes I am.

 

[dstroud]

I think that we are getting minimal controls on an amp confused with gain stages.

I have heard some killer sounds generated by amps that had minimal gain stages and killer sounds by amps that are just flame throwers. I think the real thing here is that there is more ways to skin a cat. Im one of those weird guys who likes both type of tones but I think the most important thing to remember is that if a tone works, it works. It kills me when people come up with formulas as to what is BEST and I find that is very limiting IMHO.

I won't say I've tried tons of amps, but I've tried various Mesa's, Carvin Legacy, and my DSL100 (all have several preamp tubes) - if I used a hotplate with those, cranked the master to 10 and adjusted gain to taste, I never got what I consider a good tone. I'm not saying they didn't sound good otherwise, just not with the master on 10 - that's what kinda lead me to how I think about the PI and gain stages, and that's what helped me figure out what I actually like to get out of an amp.

Well it depends. Not all amps will sound good with the master on 10 especially when you are talking about an amp that has a master volume and multiple gain stages. Take the mesa for instance. Mesa's are all about the preamp section and although you can ,You don't have to crank the master on 10 to make them sound good nor were they designed to be used that way IMHO. It seems like you are telling me that you picked amps with higher gain stages and master volumes and you expected them to sound and work like a NMV amp?
In the case if the DSl, you would have to keep the preamp on 3 and the master up and maybe use a hotplate. Ive heard killer sounds comming out of a DSL this way.

I never picked any amp based on wether or not it had a master volume and I never expected any amp to work other than the way it works - I'm a trial and error guy - crank it up and see what you get. What I get is amps with less preamp tubes sound better on 10 than amps with more preamp tubes, that's all. And when an amp with less pre tubes is on 10, it has more life to it than the amps with more preamp gain - and again that is just what I find I prefer for my playing style. I like hearing all kinds of tone (Mesa's, Carvin's, etc...), but when I'm playing, I like feeling the power section being pushed.

 

[degenaro]

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

Werd. Redrol, to me, it sounds like you're coming to the conclusion that you are Non Master Volume kinda guy. Whether its a JMP, AC30, or a Tweed Deluxe, when you crank that sumbitch up, it sounds incredible.

Here comes the obvious...: what makes them especially awesome to me, is the dynamics these amps have. Being able to control the amount of gain you have from your guitar volume kicks all kinds of ass. Having a fat clean tone turn into a gloriously massive crunch with the twist of the guitar volume knob is what blues and old school rock players seem to prefer. I learned this style from playing my TSL when I was young, because I channel switching got old, so I decided to stay on the crunch channel the entire time, and use a tubescreamer for heavier rhythms and lead.

Another factor is that Non Master Volume amps have less compression than most high gainers. Both will smack you in the face when you turn them up, but NMV's smack you in a different way. They have that super open, ready to explode sound. Not that I dont enjoy high gainers... Like the Herbert or XTC. But they dont do the NMV thing and they're not meant too.

Different kinds of amps cater to different styles of players.

Not sure I can agree on the compression bit...it all depends, saturate the crap out of an OX and believe me you got mondo compression.

But it's simple, there is a limit to how much gain you can get out from a JMP cranked. Hence most of us JMP guys also being pedal guys for over the top stuff.
But yes th idea is to channell switch the old school way with the volume control.

 

[thegame]

What amps are known to have 5 or more gain stages ?

5150, Uberschall ?
Any ENGLs ?

Turning the gain way down on an amp with many gain stages is VERY different than turning the gain up on an amp with fewer stages.

I think adding gain stages introduces a certain compression, and rounding off of the signal, even if the circuit isn't maxing out all those stages.

 

[dstroud]

I think that we are getting minimal controls on an amp confused with gain stages.

I have heard some killer sounds generated by amps that had minimal gain stages and killer sounds by amps that are just flame throwers. I think the real thing here is that there is more ways to skin a cat. Im one of those weird guys who likes both type of tones but I think the most important thing to remember is that if a tone works, it works. It kills me when people come up with formulas as to what is BEST and I find that is very limiting IMHO.

I won't say I've tried tons of amps, but I've tried various Mesa's, Carvin Legacy, and my DSL100 (all have several preamp tubes) - if I used a hotplate with those, cranked the master to 10 and adjusted gain to taste, I never got what I consider a good tone. I'm not saying they didn't sound good otherwise, just not with the master on 10 - that's what kinda lead me to how I think about the PI and gain stages, and that's what helped me figure out what I actually like to get out of an amp.

But that goes to personal preference, and the simple fact that in order to get a certain amount of gain out of an amp with fewer gain stages you have to introduce power stage distortion. And/or if you have an amp with modo gain generated in the pre-amp chances are driving the pwoer stage to hard will be mush.
Look at it this way, for every guy that tells you that an amp was not designed to have power amp break -up I show you some one that will likeat the very least some coloration from there.
That said, having a bit of color isn't nearly the same as driving the snot out of the tubes AND the output transformer.

Yeah, good point about power amp coloration - even if the power section doesn't sound good on 10, it will still sound better on 6 than on 3. I dunno, I guess I'm at a point in life where I like everything on 10 .

 

[degenaro]

Yeah, good point about power amp coloration - even if the power section doesn't sound good on 10, it will still sound better on 6 than on 3. I dunno, I guess I'm at a point in life where I like everything on 10 .

Makes sense, there is something said for the OX to puke blood. Big fan of that myself.

 

[Telephant]

Not sure I can agree on the compression bit...it all depends, saturate the crap out of an OX and believe me you got mondo compression.

But it's simple, there is a limit to how much gain you can get out from a JMP cranked. Hence most of us JMP guys also being pedal guys for over the top stuff.
But yes th idea is to channell switch the old school way with the volume control.

Very true.. I dont know, maybe its a different sounding compression or just the way it feels in general that it makes it seem so much more open and chest thumpin' y'know?

Send me a Flexi so I can test my theory out.

 

[degenaro]

Not sure I can agree on the compression bit...it all depends, saturate the crap out of an OX and believe me you got mondo compression.

But it's simple, there is a limit to how much gain you can get out from a JMP cranked. Hence most of us JMP guys also being pedal guys for over the top stuff.
But yes th idea is to channell switch the old school way with the volume control.

Very true.. I dont know, maybe its a different sounding compression or just the way it feels in general that it makes it seem so much more open and chest thumpin' y'know?

Send me a Flexi so I can test my theory out.

Send me money and I will.

 

[70strathead]

Well, as far as marshalls, i don't really know how many gain stages are in a stock jcm800/late 70's master volume JMP vs. a NMV Marshall head. But i do know i love the tones both for certain styles running pedals to boost and i have to admit everytime i plug into my NMV head and turn it all the way up, it's just night and day tonewise/feelwise and thump-wise compared to the master volume heads. you have to dig a little harder to get notes to sing, but well worth the effort IMO. i have played some stock marshalls that sounded bright and shitty. But then again i've replaced all the bright caps on my heads so maybe thats why. I rely heavily on my guitar volume knob because i like the signal to get as clean and pure as possible..i've never heard a hot modded amp or even a modern high gain amp clean up well like a stock amp would, which to me is part of the 'awesome tone" package. then again im a single channel amp guy. anybody gotta 60's blackface dual-showman head for sale? : )But i have heard some high gain amps sound incredible so i guess its what you like and how you approach it. the Marshall DSL100 sounds great when dialed in the right way at master on 3-4. i think good Power amp stage and trannies is where the BIG tone is at...IMO.

A

 

[hunter]

Amps with more or less gain stages sound different, that's for sure, but better or worse, who is to tell?

It's all in the fingers anyways ...

 

[stratotone]

I'm digging the bogner I just got, which has more knobs/tubes/gain than a time machine, but I also like my trainwreck clones that are 5 knob wonders and just beat the shit out of the output section. Heck, I even like my D'lite dumble clone that is from another 'tone corner'.

Keep an open mind, you never know what you'll discover. If you just look at the specs on a trainwreck clone (2x12ax7 preamp, 1 12ax7 PI, 2xEL34 or 4xEL84 depending on the model) - you'd never think it could get as crunchy as it gets. Or that it would get such a killer lead tone and can get stellar cleans just by rolling the volume back. I keep thinking of running one of those with the line out to a Gmajor or something and then from there to another power amp, since a loop in a 'wreck would just screw the tone over.

I ran the blue channel on my XTC cranked at a gig and it was getting all sorts of (to my ear) vintage marshall goodness.

I'm also thinking of getting an axe-fx. Horrors, no tubes at all!

To limit yourself to one amp topology is pretty pointless, we're in a real good time to be a user of electric guitar amplification - it's not like the old days when it was fender, marshall or that damned hippie mesa boogie amp.

Pete

 

[Telephant]

I want a Trainwreck bad. Those Guy Kykendall (er whatever his name his) vids are some of my favorite tones of all times.