Axe vs Real Amps

[journeyman73]

So, i dont want this to get out of hand, like so many modeling threads seem to do everywhere but...

Im screwing around with an AX8. This isn't a which modeler is better type of thread. It sounds awesome.

I know i may not be totally optimizing the modeling aspect because im actually running it through my Power Station to a real 4x12 cab. Ive disabled the Cab simulation, of course.

In trying out the various amp model presets i have to say - though they 'sound' awesome and in many cases have a certain core DNA of the actual amps being modeled (at least for the ones I am actually familiar with) I am a little surprised by how there isnt a huge difference in feel across them...they all feel sort of like the have the same core feel with a little layer of nuance at times to capture something REALLY sepcific about a particular amp.

Before someone says 'well, you really need to screw with the cabs and the IR's into a flat monitor etc'...i guess im just surprised because i run my physical amp heads all thru my Power Station (using as an attenuator) and the same 4x12 and there are huge differences in feel across them - has nothing to do with cab variation, etc...its the amp, themselves...but i dont seem to be feeling that with the AX8...i hear huge characteristic differences across the modeled amps but the feel differences are not as impactful as real life for me.

Do you guys feel the same? You guys that use modelers AND still love real amps is the feel just more prevalent on the real amps? Is the modeling route really about prioritzing other factors (eg space, variety, gigging, recording, etc) and about getting recorded tones....but the 'feel' part of it just isnt there yet compared to the real thing.

I should also add, im not talking about volume difference - for example, the feel is lacking to me in the modeler compared to a real amp even at lowish volume...so, this isnt a 'well, you dont have the 4x12 thumping with the AX8 of course it wont feel as good'.

Really curious to hear people's thoughts...

 

[ibzprestige]

I had a Kemper and used it through a power station and a 4x12 and also a Friedman asm-12. While it did sound awesome, no doubt, I too thought all amp models started to have the same feel and tone to them after awhile. Don't get me wrong though they are definitely cool little machines and the tones aren't bad at all, but it got boring after a couple weeks.

 

[Axisman5150]

I feel the same way you do, in that going from one amp model to the next feels the same. I have an Axe-Fx Ultra which I love to play through, especially for low volume playing, but compared to the feel of playing through the "real" thing it's not the same. My Egnater Mod50 with different modules to choose from gives me that feel when going from different types of modules. Granted the power section is the same, but how each module responds to my attack is different from one module to the next.
That's why I'm going to go with a Suhr Reactive Load through a Cab sim for my low volume playing/recording instead of upgrading to the lastest and "greatest" amp modeler which will be replaced by the next version...where my real amp doesn't need a firmware update. Don't get me wrong, I love the modeling thing for what it does and embrace both digital and analog but the feel through a tube amp just hasn't been replicated yet, IMHO.

 

[born_hard]

I feel the same way you do, in that going from one amp model to the next feels the same. I have an Axe-Fx Ultra which I love to play through, especially for low volume playing, but compared to the feel of playing through the "real" thing it's not the same. My Egnater Mod50 with different modules to choose from gives me that feel when going from different types of modules. Granted the power section is the same, but how each module responds to my attack is different from one module to the next.
That's why I'm going to go with a Suhr Reactive Load through a Cab sim for my low volume playing/recording instead of upgrading to the lastest and "greatest" amp modeler which will be replaced by the next version...where my real amp doesn't need a firmware update. Don't get me wrong, I love the modeling thing for what it does and embrace both digital and analog but the feel through a tube amp just hasn't been replicated yet, IMHO.

Thats a good point, i feel the same.

 

[journeyman73]

thanks for the thoughts guys!

its good to know maybe im not missing the boat and im hearing/feeling what i thought

 

[neilli]

Yeah, that's interesting to read - I'm in the list for an Ax8, mainly for home recording / quiet playing BUT I'm not the guy who wants a bajillion tones.

While I'm sure it's amazing having all those options at your fingertips, I'm sure I'll set up 3 or 4 core tones and then just add fx to them, so the 'got boring' thing should hopefully not affect me too much..

 

[cardinal]

I agree to the extent that with the various modelers I've used (including the AFXII), it's not that the amps lack "feel," it's that they all feel the same. Feel, to me at least, is the dynamics (how variations on pick attack translate to different tones and gain levels) and "bloom" (how a note maybe swells and decays while it sustains).

Many modern modelers do both reasonably well, IMHO. But whether you're playing a Recto, Marshall, or Twin, they all kinda do it the same way.

But they also don't seem to do it as well as the real thing. With my 2204, there are tons of textures you can get by playing with the guitar volume and pick attack. Notes can be soft, round, and cleanish or sharp, cracking and overdriven depending on your technique. The AFXII could clean up (sometimes better than the real thing) and the bloom and decay seem great, but I couldn't get the note to change from "soft and round" to "sharp and cracking" with just technique. That's always been a bit disappointing.

 

[Steinmetzify]

Do you guys feel the same? You guys that use modelers AND still love real amps is the feel just more prevalent on the real amps? Is the modeling route really about prioritzing other factors (eg space, variety, gigging, recording, etc) and about getting recorded tones....but the 'feel' part of it just isnt there yet compared to the real thing. Really curious to hear people's thoughts...

For the bolded part; yeah, for me it is but I use the Axe for practice and recording, both into headphones. It's nothing like the in room feel, nor is it supposed to be. I dig it for what it is and what I use it for, but I really don't look at it as an 'amp replacement' per se.

For the 2nd part yeah, it really is about prioritizing factors, namely recording and getting good recorded tones without using mics/cabs/tubes/other stuff that doesn't work when recording at 3am.

As far as the feel goes...is it perfect and there yet? Nah....but if you mess around with a bunch of different types of amps I think it's there....I use FAS Modern and the Mesa stuff a lot, and some Recto stuff and some Marshall stuff. To me, they all respond and feel different, with regards to how fast the bass tracks, what the highs sound like etc...but everyone is different.

For me I find it an acceptable substitute or tool compared to shit I can't use when I can use the Axe (3am practice/recording sessions) and that's cool enough for me.

Let me ask you something though, as the OP....don't you find amps all act pretty much the same way too, no matter what you throw at them? A boost/delay/reverb/whatever pedal isn't going to change how a Marshall/5150/whatever FEELS, right? It's still going to be the same amp, just going to have different levels of sag or low end tightness, but the core tone and feel will still be the same. I think just because the Axe says it has a bunch of different models in it, people expect all those things to act like their counterparts, and when they don't it's kind of a shocker, but they forget that the amps do it too.

Just my opinion. I love em both, amps an Axe, and use em both regularly.

 

[PBGas]

I had a Kemper and used it through a power station and a 4x12 and also a Friedman asm-12. While it did sound awesome, no doubt, I too thought all amp models started to have the same feel and tone to them after awhile. Don't get me wrong though they are definitely cool little machines and the tones aren't bad at all, but it got boring after a couple weeks.

This is the issue I had with several of my Kemper units as well. I'm still on the fence whether or not I go back to the modelling for live stuff. Really, at this point, my setup isn't overly difficult to maintain at all. If it ain't broke, no need to fix at this point. It sounds great and works nicely.

 

[Shask]

There is a core set of math algorithms which describe how tubes work, so it makes sense that since all the virtual amps use these algorithms that there would be similarities.

I dunno. Sometimes I feel like there is a lot of similarity, but then again, there are many ways to change the tone and feel. Just playing with the Supply Sag control can change how it feels. The Master changes it a lot also. I almost feel like all of the EQ options are more powerful than having all the amp models. I usually EQ quite a bit.... so much so that I can use about any amp model, and make them all sound the same, lol. I am very good at dialing in "my" tone, even if I try not to! I typically only use 1-2 presets most of the time.

To be honest, most "real" amps feel somewhat similar to me also. Since I mostly play high gain modern amps, they all kind of feel similar. Especially after I boost them with a Tubescreamer, put an EQ in the loop, etc.... I was good at making every amp have "my" tone also, lol.

I am actually finding many times that the real amps are starting to annoy me more. The Axe has a much cleaner clarity to it. It can kind of sound "fake" until you get used to it, and amps start to sound more congested and messy. Most of the time I turn on a real amp now, I get annoyed with it after 15-20 minutes, and go back to the Axe rack.

 

[journeyman73]

There is a core set of math algorithms which describe how tubes work, so it makes sense that since all the virtual amps use these algorithms that there would be similarities.

I dunno. Sometimes I feel like there is a lot of similarity, but then again, there are many ways to change the tone and feel. Just playing with the Supply Sag control can change how it feels. The Master changes it a lot also. I almost feel like all of the EQ options are more powerful than having all the amp models. I usually EQ quite a bit.... so much so that I can use about any amp model, and make them all sound the same, lol. I am very good at dialing in "my" tone, even if I try not to! I typically only use 1-2 presets most of the time.

To be honest, most "real" amps feel somewhat similar to me also. Since I mostly play high gain modern amps, they all kind of feel similar. Especially after I boost them with a Tubescreamer, put an EQ in the loop, etc.... I was good at making every amp have "my" tone also, lol.

I am actually finding many times that the real amps are starting to annoy me more. The Axe has a much cleaner clarity to it. It can kind of sound "fake" until you get used to it, and amps start to sound more congested and messy. Most of the time I turn on a real amp now, I get annoyed with it after 15-20 minutes, and go back to the Axe rack.

damn, youve already been lost and gone over to the 'other' side! lol

on a serious note, thanks for providing a different point of view. im not there yet, myself, but i can see where are you coming from

 

[Shask]

There is a core set of math algorithms which describe how tubes work, so it makes sense that since all the virtual amps use these algorithms that there would be similarities.

I dunno. Sometimes I feel like there is a lot of similarity, but then again, there are many ways to change the tone and feel. Just playing with the Supply Sag control can change how it feels. The Master changes it a lot also. I almost feel like all of the EQ options are more powerful than having all the amp models. I usually EQ quite a bit.... so much so that I can use about any amp model, and make them all sound the same, lol. I am very good at dialing in "my" tone, even if I try not to! I typically only use 1-2 presets most of the time.

To be honest, most "real" amps feel somewhat similar to me also. Since I mostly play high gain modern amps, they all kind of feel similar. Especially after I boost them with a Tubescreamer, put an EQ in the loop, etc.... I was good at making every amp have "my" tone also, lol.

I am actually finding many times that the real amps are starting to annoy me more. The Axe has a much cleaner clarity to it. It can kind of sound "fake" until you get used to it, and amps start to sound more congested and messy. Most of the time I turn on a real amp now, I get annoyed with it after 15-20 minutes, and go back to the Axe rack.

damn, youve already been lost and gone over to the 'other' side! lol

on a serious note, thanks for providing a different point of view. im not there yet, myself, but i can see where are you coming from

I find it funny that was post 1010 from me

Play with the Supply Sag and Master controls to change the feel. Also, I am not sure how you set up your patches, but I play around a lot with boosting. With tube amps it is almost always an OD pedal like a Tubescreamer, but in the Axe that that can really compress everything. I play around much more with using EQs as boosts instead of Drive blocks because that keeps more dynamics in the tone. I also like to turn the Dynamics knob up in the Amp block to about 2 oclock so that I get a more aggressive crunch when I pick harder. Putting an expander before the amp can give some interesting results also. I typically run Filters after the amp to boost the low end dramatically.

I have just found that most tube amps are overkill for me these days. Too loud to be useful. Need too much outboard gear to dial in. I do kind of miss the simplicity sometimes, but using a rack with a poweramp and cab gives much of that "amp in the room" tone and feel. Keep in mind though that I dont need 100 varieties of tone. I typically dial in 1 or 2 presets of "my" tone. I set them up with a few effects I can punch in/out, and I am good. I like things simple for the most part, but I do want control over everything.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

The tones are just about there on the Kemper, like 90-99%. So awesome in the studio.
The feelz are good, but probably more like 52.7%

I flipped my kemper a few months back but might jump back in at some point. The sounds are great, as I am sure the AX8 is similar. You could always go 4cm with the AX8 if you get antsy to bring back the tubes.

 

[Reflux]

Have you tried changing the amp's powerstack? This made a huge difference for my own experience with the Fractal.
Try switching it from passive/active (or whatever it is on), to another one. Really like the Vintage, German, and Plexi ones for high gain depending on what I need.
Still not like the real thing, but helps you get a bit closer.

 

[Bishop5150]

I just fell to the darkside. I've had my Axe and Kemper for a couple of years. Until now, never used them live or at practice. I could never get them to sound good at gig volume. I know it was user error cause I'd heard them sound great live. I tried at practice and thought it sounded terrible through our PA so I kept them at home for practice rigs until I could make them sound better. I noticed when the Quantum Firmware came out the Axe-FX was starting to sound real good. I could dial in my tones similar to my real amp tones and it sounded the same without having to do deep tweaking. JUst using the bass, mids and treble of the amp block. So when the AX8 came out I bought it and tried again at practice running direct through our PA and was blown away. It sounded just like my tube amp rig mic'ed up. I've done 2 gigs with it now. The last one headlining the main stage at the House of Blues and the AX8 passed the test with flying colors. I am now a fractal convert. Going to sell 2 of my halfstacks and keep one. My lower back is going to love me.

 

[Elric]

F*cking love my AFX. Rarely play amps now; mostly as a reality check. Some folks never bond with the high end digital boxes. Some folks cannot overcome the psychology of the situation, either (IMHO). It's all good. My tone's never been better and I'm so glad I can stop flipping amps whenever I get into a new genre/kick/living situation/etc.

FWIW, I can feel the difference between amps but I generally do not dial in the amps the same way; most of the time I pull up a model based on some target sound that the real life amp would be useful for.... I have also read the info (wiki, etc) that tells how the model maps to the 'real' amp which helps in getting the most out of the model of interest. Once you understand how the model maps to the amp, I have even tried settings from folks using the amp or info from the manufacturer to tweak the model and you can actually hear most of what people praise and complain about on many of them. This is a bit of 'work' but getting intimate with 100s of amps nuances would be too.

Using real cabs can be a big help for those who have trouble adjusting the micced FRFR tone but it sounds like you have kicked that around.

 

[shadow070]

well i love digital, silent playing recording wise etc.

Ive been practicing with plugins and what not so a vew weeks back i turned to my amp. My same practice routine and i sounded horrible, my technique was lacking. The way i picked, the way i dampend the strings and more. I found that when your signal gets converted analog to digital, a lot happens. The compression/conversion gives a other feel and or reaction.

So for practicing, im using my amp again unless its late at night and for recording i go digital, i cant mic at home.

 

[born_hard]

well i love digital, silent playing recording wise etc.

Ive been practicing with plugins and what not so a vew weeks back i turned to my amp. My same practice routine and i sounded horrible, my technique was lacking. The way i picked, the way i dampend the strings and more. I found that when your signal gets converted analog to digital, a lot happens. The compression/conversion gives a other feel and or reaction.

So for practicing, im using my amp again unless its late at night and for recording i go digital, i cant mic at home.

You need the Rivera Silent Sister and a Rivera Rockcrusher and a Suhr Reactive Load and a Small Power Amp and a SM57.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6jZjzTXATA
Listen to these AX8 amp models, sounds not bad at all, i can hear lots of good qualities, but my ear is somehow tired after a while. I dont know if there is too much delay on the presets or if its the overall feel of the Fractal which affects all of the presets/amp models.

 

[shadow070]

well i love digital, silent playing recording wise etc.

Ive been practicing with plugins and what not so a vew weeks back i turned to my amp. My same practice routine and i sounded horrible, my technique was lacking. The way i picked, the way i dampend the strings and more. I found that when your signal gets converted analog to digital, a lot happens. The compression/conversion gives a other feel and or reaction.

So for practicing, im using my amp again unless its late at night and for recording i go digital, i cant mic at home.

You need the Rivera Silent Sister and a Rivera Rockcrusher and a Suhr Reactive Load and a Small Power Amp and a SM57.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6jZjzTXATA
Listen to these AX8 amp models, sounds not bad at all, i can hear lots of good qualities, but my ear is somehow tired after a while. I dont know if there is too much delay on the presets or if its the overall feel of the Fractal which affects all of the presets/amp models.

Yeah im planning on getting the torpedo live. The axe and kemper are very tempting but i dont want to loose my technique. Practicing with something thats verry unforgiving is best. But for recording those units are killer to have.

 

[born_hard]

Hey boys and girls,

thats not an Axe but please listen to this clip (from min 5:00), this Softube Marshall sounds very convincing. Very. I dont know about the feel, but this crunch on my studio monitors is the tits. Just crank it up!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ISTyXU ... tml5=False