XTC 20thA or Axe Fx3?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catthan
  • Start date Start date
@TheGreatGreen, you do make the choice harder on top of previous reasonable comments for one or the other option..

One concern with the XTC is that the Wizard will render it redundant after the honeymoon.
I felt with all 3 previous 101b I owned that the blue was great but not quite my sound- I wanted a more Marshall version of it with better note definition on the higher frets (Wizard!) and the red was a nice lead channel to noodle on, like a Boogie Mk meets Marshall, but also not quite there.
I also struggled to mix it probably due to lack of skill and re-tracked with a CAE OD100 std to finish the job ..
It’s this one, all written with and aimed for the 101b except main riff is a Gower KK+ and there is a ToV rhythm riff in the end. the rest was re-tracked with the CAE and a SD-1 at the front..



I actually Iterated between XTCs and CAEs a bit going through this loop of missing that Bogner chew but struggling to make music with it and having to go back to a CAE or recently the Wizer which has made any other amp choice hard to justify..

As for Green, I just used a Shiva instead..
So the 20th is the version I’ve always felt would be the right one for me and always in the back of my mind as the one I got to try..

OTOH the AXE FX3 is just a great ecosystem of tone meets utility that won’t hang in the current UK market where I trade and will help as a studio tool
The XTC likely will hang and financially this makes it hard to justify bargainous as it might be..
 
Agreed 1000 %
TheGreatGreen said:
Warning: Incoming novel. You're between two excellent options, really.


A year or two ago, I bought an Ecstasy 20th 6L6 and had it for about a week before (stupidly) returning it. I returned it because its Blue channel just flat out isn't as good as the 101B's Blue channel. I was stuck on the notion that because it said "Ecstasy" on the front, the Blue channel mattered more than anything else.

BUT, a few months ago, after realizing I missed the XTC 20th since I returned it, I picked up another one and it's here to stay, BECAUSE...

The 20th A's Red channel is absolutely top tier. As good as anything I've ever played. Believe it or not, it kind of sits somewhere between a 5150 and Recto, but it's a bit clearer with more string detail in the highs, and with just a bit more squish in the feel in a good way. Also, with the right boost, it's easily as aggressive and crushing as a 5150 or Recto.

Also, the Green channel has one of the best clean channels I've ever heard from a channel switcher. It's basically a Fender Blackface front end. Max out the channel volume and use Gain as your volume control and you've got a Fender in 100w 6L6 head format.

And finally, while the Blue channel in standard mode just isn't as good as a 101B, the Ecstasy 20th's Blue Plexi mode with a slight boost in front is honest to god the best modern medium gain just-over-edge-of-breakup tone I have ever heard or played anywhere. Just phenomenal. It's one of the most addictive and expressive sounds I've ever heard from an amp.


Basically, my original tunnel vision caused me to return the Ecstasy 20th amp because "the 20th A's Blue channel wasn't quite as good as the 101B's Blue channel." Don't fall into that trap. The one I have now isn't going anywhere for as long as I can help it. It is absolutely a lifer amp.



HOWEVER...



The Axe-Fx is easily the single most capable, most encyclopedic and most total solution for the electric guitar to have been produced in any format, ever. I'll also say that through the Axe-Fx, I have learned more about guitar tone than in all my years of forum reading and tube amp playing combined. I absolutely cannot recommend a Fractal flagship modeler enough. If there are effects you want but don't have, the Axe-Fx has them in there, either directly or with some creativity can be dialed in, almost guaranteed.

Personally I think some of the Axe's amp models in some cases sound EXACTLY like the real amps they model, and in other cases they sound close but not exact. Each model is kind of its own thing. They may or may not sound and feel exactly like your personal amp but I can't say they're worse. I will say there are plenty of Fractal's models that are "as good as" their corresponding tube amp in terms of both sound and feel though, aboslutely. With the right understanding and implementation of IR's, it is completely convincing. With the right poweramp and cab, it is completely convincing.

They're also wildly flexible in terms of routing. I've setup a single Axe-Fx III to do full WDW with the ability to separately blend the dry signal into the wet cabs and/or the wet signal into the dry cabs if I wanted AND send a separate fully mixed stereo signal to FoH all in a single patch, with the abiltiy to seamlessly toggle any wet effect at will without impacting the dry signal.


You really can't go wrone with either. Sorry if this makes the choice harder lol.
Click to expand...
Agreed 1000 %
 
Catthan said:
@TheGreatGreen, you do make the choice harder on top of previous reasonable comments for one or the other option..

One concern with the XTC is that the Wizard will render it redundant after the honeymoon.
I felt with all 3 previous 101b I owned that the blue was great but not quite my sound- I wanted a more Marshall version of it with better note definition on the higher frets (Wizard!) and the red was a nice lead channel to noodle on, like a Boogie Mk meets Marshall, but also not quite there.
I also struggled to mix it probably due to lack of skill and re-tracked with a CAE OD100 std to finish the job ..
It’s this one, all written with and aimed for the 101b except main riff is a Gower KK+ and there is a ToV rhythm riff in the end. the rest was re-tracked with the CAE and a SD-1 at the front..



I actually Iterated between XTCs and CAEs a bit going through this loop of missing that Bogner chew but struggling to make music with it and having to go back to a CAE or recently the Wizer which has made any other amp choice hard to justify..

As for Green, I just used a Shiva instead..
So the 20th is the version I’ve always felt would be the right one for me and always in the back of my mind as the one I got to try..

OTOH the AXE FX3 is just a great ecosystem of tone meets utility that won’t hang in the current UK market where I trade and will help as a studio tool
The XTC likely will hang and financially this makes it hard to justify bargainous as it might be..
Click to expand...



About the 101B and the Wizards...

I also have a 101B, and the other thing I'll say about the Ecstasy 20th is that its voicing overall is a bit brighter, clearer, slightly more modern than the 101B. If you thought the 101B was just a bit too chewy or smeary and wanted just a bit more crunch and sizzle in the highs, the Ecstasy 20th does exactly that, along with being a bit fuller in the lows as well.

Addressing your concerns about the Wizard, I also have an MC2 and an HR, and I can tell you that the Bogner is on the other end of the high gain spectrum. They're all high gain, but where Wizard amps are super tight, clear, dynamic, and articulate, the Bogner is more compressed and greasy in a great way. Love them both and they excel at different things. I don't think either totally outclasses the other in all areas.
 
Last edited:
Catthan said:
Not a discussion about how good modelers are or aren’t, rather a what would you do given the circumstances.

The circumstances..
I play through a load box and IRs and monitor via Slate VSX headphones.
Only amps that have ‘transcended’ the something is missing issue is my previous Gowers and my current Wiz MC1 100W..

Suppose I could get a Bogner XTC 20th A or an Axe.
The 20th anni is one amp I hear great things about and never got to try. However, I sold 3 101Bs in the past and thinking if I liked them so much I’d have kept the last one over the Wizer. Still, the xtc is an addictive tone and feel.

A real amp in my setup will sound good through only some IRs vs most amps in the Axe will sound good paired with dedicated IRs of which I got loads.
I think playing feel can be improved in the big Axe by adjusting the input settings.
Plus, many of the user presets in the FAS community are better than I ever got from the real amps when I owned them including the lower gain big crunch tones which I always struggle to dial in with my setup.

I did try the FM3 and compared to my Wizard it felt like the plastic sex doll equivalent but that’s bc the Wizer is a beast; many real amps can be made to sound or feel shite in a setup like mine so I don’t see this as a lack of the axe. The Wizard stays of course.

OTOH the Bogner is, well.. a fockin 120W proper head of an amp and I’m always drawn to them even though they don’t stay. The 20th is one I’ve not owned and supposed to be the shit if you’re not too purist about blue channel authenticity. Given past experience it just seems that I do many good amps like this a disservice..

Blasting through a proper cab and getting amp in the room vibes is not a practical reality for me and doesn’t weigh in the discussion.

Why not both you might ask.. well,, if I were to gape my credit card I’d get another Tyler bc of the headstock among other things. Plus they hold value better than, say, Andersons..

Looking for interesting perspectives, things I might have not thought for either option.
Click to expand...
Having been a guiyar player for 45+ years,
and as an owner of some seriously decent amps(Suhr PT100, Bogner Helios/100w, Rivera m100, Ampeg VL1002), my recommendation would be to purchase the AxeFx iii turbo. I bought mine 8 months ago, and I’ve been extremely happy with it.
So far, I have zero complaints. The AxeFx sounds killer.
Does it “feel” like playing a real amp? No.
But, after some tweaks, it’s damn close.(I did a couple of things that made it feel “better” to me. Got rid of the noise gate block, put a Fryette/VHT “Valvulator” out front, and I’m running the AxeFx through a tube power amp into 2 2x12 KSR cabs)
I love being able to play at conversation level and get, for all intents and purposes, a ripping guitar tone.
I haven’t gigged with it yet. But, that’s coming up, once I get a good rack box.
 
That AXE will be worth half as much you paid for it in 6 months.
 
Mr. Chainsaw said:
One thing to consider is if amps have a lot of different ways to shape feel and tone, like the XTCs do with all of their options, it's hard to capture all of that digitally. I'm not sure how the Axe FX models compensate for those switchable options in some way, outside of their normal tweakable options. But you do get more amps available than just the 20th XTC to try out too, along with all of the effects.
Click to expand...
The Axe FXis a bad modeller to use this argument with. Almost always it exposes way more than a real amp has. Usually they extend it by making every setting available on every amp across 6 screens or dozens or controls. Selectable bright cap? The Axe just lets you choose any bright cap value. Mesa Mark amps have a fat switch that shifts the treble EQ? Now every amp in the Axe FX does. Three damping modes on the bogner? That's the resonance switch they added to choose any value. Adjustable negative feedback settings? On the Axe you can adjust it with a knob. There's an EQ shift button? On the Axe you can put any amps tone stack in any other amp. And are an EQ in the middle, adjust the input EQ that's fixed in place on amps, and adjust the bias and transformer match and anything else.

Something unique like the Vintage Modern switch on the Bogner? They just make a Bogner XTC Red Vintage and a Bogner XTC Red Modern amp which represents each setting.

There are some amps like VHT/FRYETTE Sig.x/Pitbull that are harder to model because all those modes would make it a lot of work, but any amp which is modelled almost always have everything available or enhanced.

Killcrop said:
For what your needs are the Axe FX is probably a logical choice. But you can never go wrong with a Bogner.
I would much rather fiddle with all those knobs on the Ecstasy than open another menu on a screen. Plus the Bogner will never need software updates or rebooting.

The AxeFx looks and feels like an appliance and the Bogner an instrument.
Click to expand...
One could argue that you have to reboot your amp much more often because if you leave it running 24/7 the tubes will wear out, but the Axe FX can stay running all day without issue.

And if you want an update for your amp, you have to sell the old one and buy the 20th anniversary, with the Axe FX you get those new amps for free.
Geo said:
That AXE will be worth half as much you paid for it in 6 months.
Click to expand...
If that's true, he should buy a 6 month old one used for half the price of new!
 
IronSean said:
The Axe FXis a bad modeller to use this argument with. Almost always it exposes way more than a real amp has. Usually they extend it by making every setting available on every amp across 6 screens or dozens or controls. Selectable bright cap? The Axe just lets you choose any bright cap value. Mesa Mark amps have a fat switch that shifts the treble EQ? Now every amp in the Axe FX does. Three damping modes on the bogner? That's the resonance switch they added to choose any value. Adjustable negative feedback settings? On the Axe you can adjust it with a knob. There's an EQ shift button? On the Axe you can put any amps tone stack in any other amp. And are an EQ in the middle, adjust the input EQ that's fixed in place on amps, and adjust the bias and transformer match and anything else.

Something unique like the Vintage Modern switch on the Bogner? They just make a Bogner XTC Red Vintage and a Bogner XTC Red Modern amp which represents each setting.

There are some amps like VHT/FRYETTE Sig.x/Pitbull that are harder to model because all those modes would make it a lot of work, but any amp which is modelled almost always have everything available or enhanced.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. With so many options you'd end up tweaking it into something that doesn't necessarily resemble the real thing, for better or worse I suppose.
 
Catthan said:
Not a discussion about how good modelers are or aren’t, rather a what would you do given the circumstances.

The circumstances..
I play through a load box and IRs and monitor via Slate VSX headphones.
Only amps that have ‘transcended’ the something is missing issue is my previous Gowers and my current Wiz MC1 100W..

Suppose I could get a Bogner XTC 20th A or an Axe.
The 20th anni is one amp I hear great things about and never got to try. However, I sold 3 101Bs in the past and thinking if I liked them so much I’d have kept the last one over the Wizer. Still, the xtc is an addictive tone and feel.

A real amp in my setup will sound good through only some IRs vs most amps in the Axe will sound good paired with dedicated IRs of which I got loads.
I think playing feel can be improved in the big Axe by adjusting the input settings.
Plus, many of the user presets in the FAS community are better than I ever got from the real amps when I owned them including the lower gain big crunch tones which I always struggle to dial in with my setup.

I did try the FM3 and compared to my Wizard it felt like the plastic sex doll equivalent but that’s bc the Wizer is a beast; many real amps can be made to sound or feel shite in a setup like mine so I don’t see this as a lack of the axe. The Wizard stays of course.

OTOH the Bogner is, well.. a fockin 120W proper head of an amp and I’m always drawn to them even though they don’t stay. The 20th is one I’ve not owned and supposed to be the shit if you’re not too purist about blue channel authenticity. Given past experience it just seems that I do many good amps like this a disservice..

Blasting through a proper cab and getting amp in the room vibes is not a practical reality for me and doesn’t weigh in the discussion.

Why not both you might ask.. well,, if I were to gape my credit card I’d get another Tyler bc of the headstock among other things. Plus they hold value better than, say, Andersons..

Looking for interesting perspectives, things I might have not thought for either option.
Click to expand...
I just picked up a 20th XTC and it is fantastic but honestly in your situation I think I’d go AXE.
 
Both are 2nd hand and both carry risk of losing money on resale for different reasons. If I was rational I’d buy neither
 
Do you have a good interface and a pc fast enough for low latency? If so I would download NAM and buy some good profiles. If not then probably the AxeFX. Only because in my experience running an amp through a load + IRs feels better than a modeler but still sounds worse than micing it. The difference between modelers and a LB + IR setup is smaller than IRs vs mic.

If your pc + interface is slow and you want feel go with the Bogner, otherwise I kind of think its a shame to have that nice of head running only through a LB. Either way whichever one you think you'll be happier with.

You could also invest in a better interface, mic pres, or monitors / headphones if one leaves leftover budget.
 
Catthan said:
@TheGreatGreen, you do make the choice harder on top of previous reasonable comments for one or the other option..

One concern with the XTC is that the Wizard will render it redundant after the honeymoon.
I felt with all 3 previous 101b I owned that the blue was great but not quite my sound- I wanted a more Marshall version of it with better note definition on the higher frets (Wizard!) and the red was a nice lead channel to noodle on, like a Boogie Mk meets Marshall, but also not quite there.
I also struggled to mix it probably due to lack of skill and re-tracked with a CAE OD100 std to finish the job ..
It’s this one, all written with and aimed for the 101b except main riff is a Gower KK+ and there is a ToV rhythm riff in the end. the rest was re-tracked with the CAE and a SD-1 at the front..



I actually Iterated between XTCs and CAEs a bit going through this loop of missing that Bogner chew but struggling to make music with it and having to go back to a CAE or recently the Wizer which has made any other amp choice hard to justify..

As for Green, I just used a Shiva instead..
So the 20th is the version I’ve always felt would be the right one for me and always in the back of my mind as the one I got to try..

OTOH the AXE FX3 is just a great ecosystem of tone meets utility that won’t hang in the current UK market where I trade and will help as a studio tool
The XTC likely will hang and financially this makes it hard to justify bargainous as it might be..
Click to expand...


Good playing and cool tune/tone/mix.

That is all.


Seriously, with only minimal experience in this area, and knowing you are going to buy either one of them used and you have a studio - I really think you should do yourself and the rest of Rig-Talk a favor and just get both. Fixed.
 
I have and love both my Axe III and 101B....but if I'm being 100% honest, I rarely fire up the Bogner these days, in fact I'm considering listing it here for sale. In fairness, I like to record a lot and the Axe is a FANTASTIC tool in that regard. If I were just sitting around casually killing time playing riffs, noodling etc, to scratch a playing itch for a few I'll always go for the real amp + cab thing, it's hard to beat that vibe of power, but outside of that, I'm quite happy with the Fractal for everything else, the tones in a mix are killer, it's versatile, I can do it quietly without pissing off others, saves my ears and records so easily.

As for the value of the Axe III vs when/if the next version comes out - it'll have to be a monumental upgrade for me to consider it, I mean considering how the III already sounds I have my doubts it'll be anything beyond a lateral update (more features, more effects, etc, but not necessarily a base tone leap) in fact, I already have a dirty little plan in my head of recording some music with the III but telling folks it's the IV haha and seeing their reactions.
 
I got a new 20th XTC a couple of years back. I used it live for the year and it is a great amp! If I wasn’t so happy with my SLO rack then I would easily get another one. It is a great sounding amp!

In any case though, an Axe III is an amazing unit all around.
 
Last edited:
Catthan said:
just wanted to close the loop on this..

Went with Axe as it matches my circumstances better.
Click to expand...
Probably good news for my wallet. If you’d bought the 20th and then looked to sell it, it might have ended up at my place with your old 101B.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top