Bare Knuckle Black Dog vs 57 Classic+

[nigelpkay]

I decided to put my 2011 Les Paul Traditional back to stock 57 Classic pickups after having the Bare Knuckle Black Dog and Mule neck in there. Lately I've decided not to muck around with pickups too much any more and see how I get by with stock in most of my guitars.

Here's a sample of them just to compare, not a great test, but I played three riffs, two hard rock and one metal, and each time it's the Black Dog first, then the 57 Classic+ doing the same riff. Played through some Kemper profiles for consistency. They sounded pretty close actually, the Black Dog is 9.1k, the 57 Classic+ 8.2k. The 57 Classic to me is more raunchier, more of that Gibson grind, more open, maybe a little brighter, and a hair microphonic it seems. The Black Dog is clearer, rounder, and holds together better with more gain.
The difference is greater in the room with an amp than recorded here.

Couldn't figure out how to embed this:
https://soundcloud.com/nigelpkay/blackdog-57classicplus

 

[fretout]

Thanks for sharing! I used to take the 57 classics out of all my 68RIs and replaced them with High Output Active Pickups, but I had a session scheduled at a recording studio and brought one of my bone-stock 68RIs to the studio and I was able to get this amazing grind that I hadn't heard out of my other pickups. Thinking it was a fluke, I grabbed one of the other 68RIs when I got home to see if the 57 Classics were able to get the same kind of characteristics, and sure enough, it sounded nearly identical.

That was my passive pickup awakening.

Ever since, I've really been trying to get as much info as I could about what passive pickups would give me the same tonal characteristics, but having a little bit hotter output to make the notes jump off the fretboard and ring out longer, but haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't tried the Black Dogs yet. I figured they would be similar to Burstbuckers from what I've been able to gather. The BBs seem to lack the grind of the '57 Classics, but just like you described, they're a little rounder, and more balanced, while the '57 Classics seem to lack a little treble...

 

[Tone Zone]

I also prefer the 57 classic+ in that clip and just in general. Good pickups.

 

[skoora]

Thanks for sharing! I used to take the 57 classics out of all my 68RIs and replaced them with High Output Active Pickups, but I had a session scheduled at a recording studio and brought one of my bone-stock 68RIs to the studio and I was able to get this amazing grind that I hadn't heard out of my other pickups. Thinking it was a fluke, I grabbed one of the other 68RIs when I got home to see if the 57 Classics were able to get the same kind of characteristics, and sure enough, it sounded nearly identical.

That was my passive pickup awakening.

Ever since, I've really been trying to get as much info as I could about what passive pickups would give me the same tonal characteristics, but having a little bit hotter output to make the notes jump off the fretboard and ring out longer, but haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't tried the Black Dogs yet. I figured they would be similar to Burstbuckers from what I've been able to gather. The BBs seem to lack the grind of the '57 Classics, but just like you described, they're a little rounder, and more balanced, while the '57 Classics seem to lack a little treble...

57 Classics were my #1 choice for a while (still like them) but I've been digging the Wolfetone Marshallhead for quite a few years in a V I have. Unfortunately the low/medium output PAF pickup world is a serious Rabbit Hole. I've also really been liking older Dimarzio SD's (late 70's, 80's). Raunchy but no cocked, wah like, mid spikes, like I hear in New SD's. Volume roll off is not nearly as nice sounding as an Alnico/PAF style though. For full volume, let's rock, balls to the wall I love them.

 

[nigelpkay]

57 Classics were my #1 choice for a while (still like them) but I've been digging the Wolfetone Marshallhead for quite a few years in a V I have. Unfortunately the low/medium output PAF pickup world is a serious Rabbit Hole. I've also really been liking older Dimarzio SD's (late 70's, 80's). Raunchy but no cocked, wah like, mid spikes, like I hear in New SD's. Volume roll off is not nearly as nice sounding as an Alnico/PAF style though. For full volume, let's rock, balls to the wall I love them.

I had a Marshallhead set for awhile, it was too bright for this LP, and it was also missing some of that mid grind. Also the fact that they were non-potted didn't help, even with a noise gate. Super clear though, the MH neck pickup is my favourite neck shredder I've ever had. I might get a set again some day. I've used Dimarzio SDs a million times, keep going back to it, modern and old ones. The old ones I think are just less hot, they still sound the same though. I love them, but wanted less compression in the pickups with my high gain amps. I've sold two sets of 57 classics in the past before I landed another set to put it back to stock, and I think they sound great now. Open, raunchy, still sound good with lots of gain.

The Black Dog is really good, you can tell it sort of holds together better with gain, but I'm back in love with Gibson pickups again. I noticed lately a lot of my favourite recorded tones were from 70's Gibson's so that's why I went back.

 

[fhn_lopes]

Thanks for sharing! I used to take the 57 classics out of all my 68RIs and replaced them with High Output Active Pickups, but I had a session scheduled at a recording studio and brought one of my bone-stock 68RIs to the studio and I was able to get this amazing grind that I hadn't heard out of my other pickups. Thinking it was a fluke, I grabbed one of the other 68RIs when I got home to see if the 57 Classics were able to get the same kind of characteristics, and sure enough, it sounded nearly identical.

That was my passive pickup awakening.

Ever since, I've really been trying to get as much info as I could about what passive pickups would give me the same tonal characteristics, but having a little bit hotter output to make the notes jump off the fretboard and ring out longer, but haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't tried the Black Dogs yet. I figured they would be similar to Burstbuckers from what I've been able to gather. The BBs seem to lack the grind of the '57 Classics, but just like you described, they're a little rounder, and more balanced, while the '57 Classics seem to lack a little treble...

fretout, I think you should take a look at BKP riff raff and VHII pickups... VHII has that grind and treble, with a HUGE sustain and a clearer attack. I use on in my LP and it sounds KILLER trhough my plexi, the feedback really sings and is fully controllable, tons of sustain for solos and a nice grind (VH) to it. Not overly bright though.
THe riff raff is very similar to VHII but with matched coils and a bit less output, sounding more rounded and clear than the VHII but with the same tonal character.

If you want something even brighter but with tons of definition, look at the Emerald... (the emerald neck is THE BEST NECK pup I've ever played or heard)

 

[Stramm8]

I've always felt the 57 classics are way too bright. I like the low output and "gibson" tone but the treble was just over the top. I've got a set of WB low winds in my SG and love them. I could turn the presence back up and Chanel 3 on the EVH is now usable!!

 

[Mesa\Kramer]

Can not hear any difference what so ever

I guess what ever feels best in the room is the way to go

 

[skoora]

I agree the difference is incredibly slight in that clip. Only just listened to it. I will say I never cared for the plus. Always preferred the regular 57 classic. Little more open in the midrange. The metal clip sounded like the Black Dog tracked a lot better with the "cleaner" sound. The rock clips all come down to taste and what kind of amp you're using.

 

[nigelpkay]

I agree the difference is incredibly slight in that clip. Only just listened to it. I will say I never cared for the plus. Always preferred the regular 57 classic. Little more open in the midrange. The metal clip sounded like the Black Dog tracked a lot better with the "cleaner" sound. The rock clips all come down to taste and what kind of amp you're using.

That's pretty much the difference, as I said the 57 classic was a bit more open, brighter, bit more of that classic Gibson grind, but doesn't hang on to gain as well as the Black Dog. The differences are very slight though recorded. In the room, those character differences were more noticeable.
Just food for thought when the GAS grabs you to spend a ton of money on replacement pickups.

 

[ericsabbath]

nice comparison

I don't see the black dog as a PAF replacement, but more of a vintage voiced modern pup
its midrange texture is more like a modern pup like a duncan JB than like an alnico 2/3/4 PAF, but it has more midrange articulation than most
the mule is closer to a classic plus, but still quite different too (more open, better chord clarity, less compressed and smooth)
also, for some reason, most BKP models tend to sound better VERY close to strings, unlike gibson pups

 

[blackba]

I liked the black dog in the last riff and the '57 classic plus in the other two. '57 classic plus was more open sounding and less compressed.

I have been kicking around replacing the 57 classics in my lp custom and es339 with suhr thornbuckers. The 57 classics are nice, but sometimes the top end seems to be a bit harsh NAND on the es339 I really want a 4 conductor pickup to be able to run series/parallel.

 

[fretout]

Thanks for sharing! I used to take the 57 classics out of all my 68RIs and replaced them with High Output Active Pickups, but I had a session scheduled at a recording studio and brought one of my bone-stock 68RIs to the studio and I was able to get this amazing grind that I hadn't heard out of my other pickups. Thinking it was a fluke, I grabbed one of the other 68RIs when I got home to see if the 57 Classics were able to get the same kind of characteristics, and sure enough, it sounded nearly identical.

That was my passive pickup awakening.

Ever since, I've really been trying to get as much info as I could about what passive pickups would give me the same tonal characteristics, but having a little bit hotter output to make the notes jump off the fretboard and ring out longer, but haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't tried the Black Dogs yet. I figured they would be similar to Burstbuckers from what I've been able to gather. The BBs seem to lack the grind of the '57 Classics, but just like you described, they're a little rounder, and more balanced, while the '57 Classics seem to lack a little treble...

57 Classics were my #1 choice for a while (still like them) but I've been digging the Wolfetone Marshallhead for quite a few years in a V I have. Unfortunately the low/medium output PAF pickup world is a serious Rabbit Hole. I've also really been liking older Dimarzio SD's (late 70's, 80's). Raunchy but no cocked, wah like, mid spikes, like I hear in New SD's. Volume roll off is not nearly as nice sounding as an Alnico/PAF style though. For full volume, let's rock, balls to the wall I love them.

I'm glad someone else hears the same thing I hear...and can understand what I was describing!

I'll add those Marshallheads to the short list of PUPs to look into. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[fretout]

Thanks for sharing! I used to take the 57 classics out of all my 68RIs and replaced them with High Output Active Pickups, but I had a session scheduled at a recording studio and brought one of my bone-stock 68RIs to the studio and I was able to get this amazing grind that I hadn't heard out of my other pickups. Thinking it was a fluke, I grabbed one of the other 68RIs when I got home to see if the 57 Classics were able to get the same kind of characteristics, and sure enough, it sounded nearly identical.

That was my passive pickup awakening.

Ever since, I've really been trying to get as much info as I could about what passive pickups would give me the same tonal characteristics, but having a little bit hotter output to make the notes jump off the fretboard and ring out longer, but haven't been able to find exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't tried the Black Dogs yet. I figured they would be similar to Burstbuckers from what I've been able to gather. The BBs seem to lack the grind of the '57 Classics, but just like you described, they're a little rounder, and more balanced, while the '57 Classics seem to lack a little treble...

fretout, I think you should take a look at BKP riff raff and VHII pickups... VHII has that grind and treble, with a HUGE sustain and a clearer attack. I use on in my LP and it sounds KILLER trhough my plexi, the feedback really sings and is fully controllable, tons of sustain for solos and a nice grind (VH) to it. Not overly bright though.
THe riff raff is very similar to VHII but with matched coils and a bit less output, sounding more rounded and clear than the VHII but with the same tonal character.

If you want something even brighter but with tons of definition, look at the Emerald... (the emerald neck is THE BEST NECK pup I've ever played or heard)

I've researched the BKPs quite a bit, but I was looking more into the Miracle Man and Painkiller models since I'm a guy that likes the active pickups, but I didn't even consider the VHIIs or Emeralds since they come with an Alnico Vs, but I'll have to find a way to try those out if you say they would be close to a 57!

Right now, I'm trying to identify what component in the 57s is making the treble grind sound so great, whether it's the Alnico II magnets, or the resistance. When I measured two sets of my 57s, they measured slightly different than the BBs, but is a massive difference as far as what I hear through my rig.

Here's the 57 Classic Bridge in my flametop...


And here's Bridge in my Ebony LP...


The BBs I have measured between 8.41-8.44 resistance. These PUPs compared for the 57s are a lot more round, and they don't have the same type of grind as the 57s have, and THAT is what I would like to retain while increasing the sustain.

 

[Shawn Lutz]

I couldn't tell much difference between the rock riffing...I could hear a better difference in the metal riffing..liked the second one better. Both seem pretty similar but I'd have to feel it myself and see how they react to rolling off the volume knob and my pick dynamics to be sure but based on the metal riff I like the 57 better.

In my 12 Trad + I thought the bridge 57 was a bit too brittle after a while. I liked the 57 in the neck a lot. I went for an exposed dual cream replacement on it and it was a zebra underneath so I replaced the neck too. I since went with aged DiMarzio 36th anniversary set and totally satisfied.

I've never been a super output PU guy and always leaned towards mid to lower outputs, they just work for me. I put a set of Duncan Antiquities in my R7 and love them. in my BB7, it had BB1,BB2 and BB3's and I went with a SD Custom Custom in the bridge and left the stock BB's in there. The Custom-Custom is fairly hot in the 14 range but it works well for me in the BB7 LPC.