Blending in Chorus Pedals Without Mix Knob

[Rock Bodom]

Hopefully this is a simple one.

Love my Boss CE-2 and Dimension C pedals, but would like to have some control over their levels in the overall signal chain. Is this as easy as adding something like the Boss LS-2 Line Selector so I can control the blend of their effects with the dry signal (high gain in this case)? Any other alternatives to consider?

 

[Dave L]

Probably not as simple as you might think, unfortunately. You can´t have them in parallel without phase cancellation. You can of course put them in a loop with level controls, but since you still need the dry to pass through them anything you want to do to the FX signal will also happen to the dry. Simply put you can control the volume going in and out of the pedals but not the mix between dry and FX.

 

[Rock Bodom]

Probably not as simple as you might think, unfortunately. You can´t have them in parallel without phase cancellation. You can of course put them in a loop with level controls, but since you still need the dry to pass through them anything you want to do to the FX signal will also happen to the dry. Simply put you can control the volume going in and out of the pedals but not the mix between dry and FX.

Thanks for the quick reply and insight! I had never really thought about doing this before and wasn't sure. Sounds like just switching to a chorus pedal with a mix control may be easiest after all, which is fine. Was just thinking if I could get 2 of my old favorites to blend a hair better it would be cool, but what you are saying makes sense.

 

[CaseyCor]

You could split out to a wet rig and balance the wet amp's volume control to taste. That's a lot of extra gear and setup just for a chorus effect though.

 

[Rock Bodom]

You could split out to a wet rig and balance the wet amp's volume control to taste. That's a lot of extra gear and setup just for a chorus effect though.

I think I could try that with the CE-2 since it's the Waza and has the stereo output (have the gear already to run that). Dumb question, which output best goes to a delay pedal next in the chain, the wet or the dry?

I was thinking though that the Dimension C did not have a true dry output, both stereo outputs have some modulation?

 

[stratjacket]

If I follow the thread, it seems like you could use something the One Control Blend (link below) to put the Chorus in it's loop and then blend in as much as you want. I think you would max out whatever setting you have on the the specific chorus pedal so it is 100% wet and then use the Blend knob on the One Control to control the level of chorus added.

http://www.one-control.com/mosquite-blender-expressio.html

 

[CaseyCor]

You could split out to a wet rig and balance the wet amp's volume control to taste. That's a lot of extra gear and setup just for a chorus effect, though.

I think I could try that with the CE-2 since it's the Waza and has the stereo output (have the gear already to run that). Dumb question, which output best goes to a delay pedal next in the chain, the wet or the dry?

I was thinking though that the Dimension C did not have a true dry output, both stereo outputs have some modulation?

Hm...I don't think that's what you're looking for unless I'm misunderstanding the situation. As far as I know, the CE-2w stereo outs are both wet, meaning you'd be sending the affected signal to both amps. My previous suggestion was to run a "dry" amp (no chorus) and a "wet" amp (affected by the chorus pedal). That way you could adjust the volume on the wet side, blending in the chorus effect to taste.

If you split the signal from the CE-2w, you'd be putting the chorus effect on both amplifiers. If that's what you're looking to do, it'll work perfectly. Doesn't really solve the mix issue, though.

What you're looking to do is split the signal before the chorus pedal (and whatever else you'd like to run only on one side), so the dry amp's tone is preserved while the wet side gets all the soupy glory that is a classic BOSS chorus.

As for the delay question, you could run it either way. A typical wet/dry/wet rig is a dry signal in the middle with no modulation/time-based effects like delay. Those effects are run in stereo to the wet sides. This gives you the benefit of large stereo effects while still preserving your original tone pre-modulation/delay. Take out one of the wet sides and you've got the same thing, minus the stereo effects. A mono dry signal and a mono effects signal. You could very well run just the chorus to one side, and keep the delay on the other as well. That's a matter of your personal needs and taste. There's no right or wrong answer, nor any stupid questions.

Guitar -> CE-2w Output 1 -> Amp 1
................CE-2w Output 2 -> Delay -> Amp 2
...would result in chorus on both sides, with the delay on Amp 2 only.

Guitar -> Delay -> CE-2w Output 1 -> Amp 1
..............................CE-2w Output 2 -> Amp 2
...would result in both delay and chorus going to both amps. In this config, you'd have access to stereo delay and chorus effects for a really lush, large sound.

There's no "dry" side in either scenario, though. Both sides are getting chorus no matter what. If you want chorus only on one side, you'd have to split your signal before you hit the chorus pedal.

Guitar -> Splitter Output 1 -> Amp 1
................Splitter Output 2 -> CE-2w Output 1 -> Amp 2
This is what I suggested previously. With this config, you could use the volume control on Amp 2 to mix in the chorus effect to your taste. If you get the delay involved, there are a couple different ways to do it. If you've got a stereo delay pedal, you could use that to split the signal. That would get you to what I originally suggested. At this point it gets a bit more complicated, so ignore the next examples if you're feeling a bit overwhelmed. I don't want to throw too much at you at once.

Guitar -> Splitter Output 1 -> Amp 1
.................Splitter Output 2 -> CE-2w Output 1 -> Delay -> Amp 2
Now you've got a dry signal in Amp 1, with chorus and delay on Amp 2. Your original signal is untouched, and you can mix in the effects as you see fit.

Guitar -> Stereo Delay Output 1 -> Amp 1
...............Stereo Delay Output 2 -> CE-2w Output 1 -> Amp 2
Here we've got a stereo delay signal in both amps, with chorus only on one side. Because you're using the stereo delay to split your signal, the splitter box from the previous example is no longer needed. The delay takes care of it in the same way the CE-2w would. This is a more traditional use of a 2 amp setup.

Hopefully, that makes sense. There are no stupid questions here, really. It's a complicated subject with a lot of options. Once you dig in and learn it really isn't that scary. It looks daunting, but it's really not that hard. You can learn a lot by watching rig rundown videos. I watch Premier Guitar's youtube content and That Pedal Show a good deal. I've learned a ton in the last year, despite doing this stuff for over 10. There's always new stuff to learn, new concepts and methods. Others here will chime in with even more suggestions, or just correct me where I'm wrong anyway .

 

[Rock Bodom]

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback on this. I think I figured out something on the CE-2W playing around with it tonight (CaseyCor, you got me thinking about messing around with 2 amps). The CE-2W does not have 2 wet outputs, one is wet, one is dry (unlike the Dimension C which has 2 wet outputs that work together).

I ran both outputs to separate amps, put the speakers side by side to simulate a more mono output, turned the volume higher on the amp receiving the dry signal, and got more of the effect level I was looking for. I'm thinking I could accomplish this with one amp by going back to my original idea of something like the Boss Line Selector or the Mosquito Blender stratjacket recommended, first running a dry (no chorus pedal) signal into the input (line "A"), then looping out to the CE-2W but only returning the wet signal (line "B", and using a dummy cord in the dry output of the chorus pedal to create the split which I verified works), and then blending ("A" + "B") to the level I want and outputting back into the signal chain (Dave L, I'm thinking this would avoid the issue you mentioned).

 

[Dave L]

Yes, if something has a 100% wet output without any dry you can use it in a parallel loop and mix to taste with a separate dry signal. Most pedals and definitely most analog pedals do not, and can´t reach 100% on internal mix either, but the Waza seems to be a nice exception. The Line Selector isn´t the thing to use, though, that´s just two serial loops. The One Control is probably a good bet.

 

[Crunchtime]

Looks like a lot of hassle. I'd just get a pedal with a mix knob personally.

 

[Rock Bodom]

Yes, if something has a 100% wet output without any dry you can use it in a parallel loop and mix to taste with a separate dry signal. Most pedals and definitely most analog pedals do not, and can´t reach 100% on internal mix either, but the Waza seems to be a nice exception. The Line Selector isn´t the thing to use, though, that´s just two serial loops. The One Control is probably a good bet.

As you say that, I'm now second guessing if I'm really hearing 100% wet (it may be) or if it might be just shy of it. But I'm thinking I could get there with the Waza's CE-1 vibrato mode at a minimum. Something like the One Control might be handy for a few other applications too, so I'll grab one and try this out. If it works nicely in all modes, then I've got to say, this Waza chorus may have really worked out great.

As for the Dimension C, it had been awhile since I played around with it in stereo, but I did last night and man, forgot how killer it sounds that way. Think I'm going to forget about the mix level with this one and just keep a stereo setup when I use it.

 

[Rock Bodom]

Looks like a lot of hassle. I'd just get a pedal with a mix knob personally.

Yeah, I've definitely thought about that, I prefer things simple overall, and there's a Maxon I already had in mind as a backup plan. Might still grab and compare to what I'm getting with the Waza paired with the One Control, and just sell whichever I like less (though again, other than tweaking the level, the Waza sounds great to me).