Bogner Marshall variants vs Friedman SS

[chris lykins]

Just wondering if anyone had any experiences with comparing the Bogner modded Marshall flavors vs the Friedman SS?
Pro's , cons, worth owning both flavors?

 

[braintheory]

I much prefer the Bogner Marshall types (Helios and Telos). The Friedman SS and their other models are for my taste smooth, darker leaning and a bit bland tonally, while the Helios and Telos are among the very few recent made amps that actually have a raw, organic, richer sound more in the direction of vintage amps. More inspiring for me than the Friedman’s, more character. I’d still though just go with a good late ‘70’s jmp2203/4 over either in that price range

 

[Techdeth]

I prefer Bogner but still like the Friedmans a lot

 

[glpg80]

Friedman’s are more polished for in the room studio finished tones. Bogners are more raw and have the wild character of a modded Marshall pre recording. All depends on your preferences and tonal goals but I prefer Bogner.

 

[mentoneman]

i’ve had limited exposure to the xtcs 100/101s, classic, shiva, uberschall, and owned the halfler/bogner triple giant preamp,

and a lot of playing time on the SS v1 & v2

all very excellent, but of all those models i think i connected quickest to the SS v1 because it came closest to my ideal modded marshall sound. early VH!

 

[NorCal_Val]

I bought a Bogner Helios 100 at the beginning of 2023, after narrowing my amps of choice down to 4; a Friedman Steve Stevens, a Friedman Phil X, a Suhr SL68, and the Helios. From all the demos I watched, all 4 amps sounded great, but the Helios came up for sale at a great price, so I grabbed it.
It is a ferocious, raw sounding, modded Marshall.
It fits in a band mix perfectly.
If the modded SLP sound/tone is what you want, I can’t recommend a Helios enough.
Plus, it is the closest I’ve ever gotten to getting EVH’s classic Marshall tone.

 

[braintheory]

i’ve had limited exposure to the xtcs 100/101s, classic, shiva, uberschall, and owned the halfler/bogner triple giant preamp,

and a lot of playing time on the SS v1 & v2

all very excellent, but of all those models i think i connected quickest to the SS v1 because it came closest to my ideal modded marshall sound. early VH!

Those model Bogner’s imo don’t really sound Marshall-y or raw. Gotta get the Helios or Telos models for that. In general, I don’t like Bogner’s much either but those 2 models surprised me as did the original Uberschall

 

[VHTStark]

Absolutely agree when I think "Bogner modded Marshall" tones, it is the Helios. The Uberschall, Ecstasy and Shiva are different beasts, although with some careful eq'ing, I could dial the blue channel of my old '96 Ecstasy 101b close enough to the Helios 100 I had to be happy....

So, going with the Helios, compared to really any Friedman, it retains much more of its Marshall roots: Reinhold didn't really smooth anything out in the top end or upper mids. All those wild harmonics are there, for the most part.

The Friedmans I have owned/played (including the SS100) are smoother and darker.

Not really a one is better than the other; all about personal preference. I am normally a Bogner guy, but preferred the 2016 BE100 I had to the much more wild and raw Helios 100.

 

[mentoneman]

Absolutely agree when I think "Bogner modded Marshall" tones, it is the Helios. The Uberschall, Ecstasy and Shiva are different beasts, although with some careful eq'ing, I could dial the blue channel of my old '96 Ecstasy 101b close enough to the Helios 100 I had to be happy....

So, going with the Helios, compared to really any Friedman, it retains much more of its Marshall roots: Reinhold didn't really smooth anything out in the top end or upper mids. All those wild harmonics are there, for the most part.

The Friedmans I have owned/played (including the SS100) are smoother and darker.

Not really a one is better than the other; all about personal preference. I am normally a Bogner guy, but preferred the 2016 BE100 I had to the much more wild and raw Helios 100.

the classic i played had a nice marshall sound on the blue channel.

 

[glpg80]

Absolutely agree when I think "Bogner modded Marshall" tones, it is the Helios. The Uberschall, Ecstasy and Shiva are different beasts, although with some careful eq'ing, I could dial the blue channel of my old '96 Ecstasy 101b close enough to the Helios 100 I had to be happy....

So, going with the Helios, compared to really any Friedman, it retains much more of its Marshall roots: Reinhold didn't really smooth anything out in the top end or upper mids. All those wild harmonics are there, for the most part.

The Friedmans I have owned/played (including the SS100) are smoother and darker.

Not really a one is better than the other; all about personal preference. I am normally a Bogner guy, but preferred the 2016 BE100 I had to the much more wild and raw Helios 100.

Agree to disagree on the Ecstasy. My 98 101B on the blue channel is very much Marshall 2203 based minus the various audio taper instead of linear taper pots in various locations. It’s not it’s own thing or Mesa based at all.

 

[braintheory]

It’s been a while now since I last played one, but I remember the ‘90’s 101B’s I’ve tried still having a more smooth, polite sound vs vintage Marshall’s and fatter low mids. It’s just the Bogner sound with Marshall influence. Really no amp I’ve played made in the 30 years or so really does what makes vintage Marshall’s cool to me (if that’s what one wants), but the Helios and Telos are some of the closer ones I’ve tried

 

[glpg80]

It’s been a while now since I last played one, but I remember the ‘90’s 101B’s I’ve tried still having a more smooth, polite sound vs vintage Marshall’s and fatter low mids. It’s just the Bogner sound with Marshall influence. Really no amp I’ve played made in the 30 years or so really does what makes vintage Marshall’s cool to me (if that’s what one wants), but the Helios and Telos are some of the closer ones I’ve tried

Mines got a really aggressive top end? It’s nuts brighter than my modded 74. I don’t know, maybe something changed? I haven’t touched my 101B as it’s bone stock. No Cameron mods or anything of the sort.

 

[analogsystem]

I had a helios for 5 minutes and couldn’t flip it fast enough. Seemed dull compared to my 2203 and 2204. I did a gig with a borrowed Uberschall and it was a swarm of bees. I haven’t played all the Friedmans but I have the dirty shirley mini and have played a BE100 some. Yes Friedman is more refined than the Marshalls but his amps still feel more like home to me than the Bogner. They respond the way I expect just a little darker and more gain than my old Marshalls. Id take a BE or small box over the Helios.

 

[braintheory]

Mines got a really aggressive top end? It’s nuts brighter than my modded 74. I don’t know, maybe something changed? I haven’t touched my amp as it’s bone stock.

Maybe I'd have to try one again. I had it in the same room with a Wizard and some Cameron modded Marshall's. From what I remember it actually could get quite trebly if needed (lotta range on its presence and treble knobs), but didn't get that same raw, wild or gritty quality like VHTStark was referring to. That's what impressed me about the Helios and Telos. They're none-vintage that could actually capture some of those qualities I love about vintage amps. They really don't sound or feel much like Bogner's at all to me, just the label

 

[glpg80]

Maybe I'd have to try one again. I had it in the same room with a Wizard and some Cameron modded Marshall's. From what I remember it actually could get quite trebly if needed (lotta range on the presence and treble knobs), but couldn't get that same raw, wild or gritty quality like VHTStark was referring to. That's what impressed me about the Helios and Telos. They're none-vintage that could actually capture some of those qualities I love about vintage amps. They really don't sound or feel much like Bogner's at all to me, just the label

Now that I can agree with that it can get nuts bright with the presence and highs as the mids act like a Marshall treble and the lows act like a Marshall’s mids.

However I disagree still that cant get more aggressive in the mids. My jaw dropped the second I boosted the amp with an SD1 to bring in the mids. Absolutely one of the most aggressive Marshall tones at my finger tips and without playing one way more aggressive sounding than a Helios which to my ears sounds more vintage.

This is my XTC with an SD-1 and a BB2 bridge pickup. Nothing out of the ordinary. Very much modded 2203 territory.

 

[braintheory]

Now that I can agree with that it can get nuts bright with the presence and highs as the mids act like a Marshall treble and the lows act like a Marshall’s mids.

However I disagree still that cant get more aggressive in the mids. My jaw dropped the second I boosted the amp with an SD1 to bring in the mids. Absolutely one of the most aggressive Marshall tones at my finger tips and without playing one way more aggressive sounding than a Helios which to my ears sounds more vintage.

I'd have to compare one to a good stock vintage Marshall both boosted and unboosted and see. It has been a while admittedly. The Helios is more vintage sounding and probably softer, not as big, punchy of firm (wasn't the tightest amp), but it has the rich growl on powerchords that I haven't heard on any XTC I tried, the grit, rawness, rough around the edges quality, which I interpret as more aggressive than amps that are smoother on powerchords like how I remember the '90's 101B's I tried despite getting plenty bright and punchy, but it is possible if I tried one again now my mind could change. Some guys also don't want that raw, rough around the edges quality

 

[braintheory]

Now that I can agree with that it can get nuts bright with the presence and highs as the mids act like a Marshall treble and the lows act like a Marshall’s mids.

However I disagree still that cant get more aggressive in the mids. My jaw dropped the second I boosted the amp with an SD1 to bring in the mids. Absolutely one of the most aggressive Marshall tones at my finger tips and without playing one way more aggressive sounding than a Helios which to my ears sounds more vintage.

This is my XTC with an SD-1 and a BB2 bridge pickup. Nothing out of the ordinary. Very much modded 2203 territory.

I also didn't see that clip before in your post. Maybe it's the recording, not sure, but to me it sounds good, but just like the '90's XTC sound I remember. Smooth, good punch with that fat, chewy Bogner low mid quality. The uppermids aren't growling like the Marshall's or Helios, smooth imo, but with clips it can be hard to say, so I try to not read into it too much

 

[glpg80]

I also didn't see that clip before in your post. Maybe it's the recording, not sure, but to me it sounds good, but just like the '90's XTC sound I remember. Smooth, good punch with that fat, chewy Bogner low mid quality. The uppermids aren't growling like the Marshall's or Helios, very smooth, but with clips it can be hard to say, so I try to not read into it too much

I wasn’t trying to push mids in this clip but I could and can very easily. It’s recorded with an old iPhone so I wouldn’t read into it much. I will say the blue channel has got the Marshall character in the room with a lot more to give than what’s in that clip. I thought it sounded great so I captured it. It does have a slight scooped character but no more than my Aldrich - It’s modded 2203 territory which was my point to begin with. Actually the push for the enmity mod was to get the gain of the boosted XTC and aldrich but the mids of a stock Marshall so I know what you mean.

The red channel is all Bogner with a 5th gain stage. Absolutely does not fit in this conversation at all IMO.

 

[braintheory]

I wasn’t trying to push mids in this clip but I could and can very easily. It’s recorded with an old iPhone so I wouldn’t read into it much. I will say the blue channel has got the Marshall character in the room with a lot more to give than what’s in that clip and I’ll leave it at that. The red channel is all Bogner with a 5th gain stage.

It's not about how much mids are there. It's about the character. It there's growl and complex character to them or if they stay more smooth on ringing chords. That's what I'm hearing, but I understand it could be the recording. I could, for example, turn the mids all the way off on my Langner modded Marshall and even take a graph eq pedal to scoop them further, but if I were to play a chord the quality is there's still lots of growl in that region (despite being so subdued in that weird scenario) and are smoother in the lows and highs no matter how I dial it in. That's just the character of the mod and my Hermansson's would be the exact opposite

 

[glpg80]

It's not about how much mids are there. It's about the character. It there's growl and complex character to them or if they stay more smooth on ringing chords. That's what I'm hearing, but I understand it could be the recording. I could, for example, turn the mids all the way off on my Langner modded Marshall and even take a graph eq pedal to scoop them further, but if I were to play a chord the quality is they still growl in that region (despite being so subdued in that weird scenario) and are smoother in the lows and highs no matter how I dial it in. That's just the character of the mod and my Hermansson's would be the exact opposite

I do a few D chords on the recording and the growl is there. There’s also delay parallel mixed in the loop which subdues the effect a lot on phone recording IMO.

If you scoop the mids, and I mean really scoop, I’ve never had an amp still growl if it’s modded Marshall. I’ve not played a Helios or a Herman but nothing else I own acts like that? You have to have the mids dialed in to get that growl character otherwise it doesn’t exist.