Boutique Bubble Bursting?

[glpg80]

I’m gassing for another tube amp.

I don’t see cabinets as the wave of the future and wouldn’t mind doing a FRFR setup with my tube amps into a load. I’ve really been keeping an eye on the boss Waza active load as it allows me to keep my tube amps and rig setup without compromise.

If I went modeler because of tube shortages or the likes, I’d likely be looking to the helix or AX8. I just don’t see going modeler because I hate tweaking and not being able to turn physical knobs.

 

[ClintN667]

I’m gassing for another tube amp.

I don’t see cabinets as the wave of the future and wouldn’t mind doing a FRFR setup with my tube amps into a load. I’ve really been keeping an eye on the boss Waza active load as it allows me to keep my tube amps and rig setup without compromise.

If I went modeler because of tube shortages or the likes, I’d likely be looking to the helix or AX8. I just don’t see going modeler because I hate tweaking and not being able to turn physical knobs.

Tweaking was also a problem for me when I had a Kemper plus always buying profiles. Somehow the HX Stomp with its limitations was kind of an advantage for me. Like "this is all you get, make it work".

Its really hard to beat air moving though. I just went down to one amp from two. I think as long as I have one tube amp Im good. I hope...

 

[mikey]

Could have fooled me. Most prices I see of late are ridiculously high.

But few if any people are moving gear at those inflated prices. The market is saturated, supply far exceeds demand.

Depends on WHICH amp/guitar you are talking about. When I see a loaded C+(GEQ, Reverb) if it's priced accordingly..2500 for a 60w, 3-4K for a 100/Simul, they usually sell rather quickly. The non GEQ will sit and sit...and they are asking GEQ type prices.
A vintage Marshall, say a 72 ptp with no mods, for 2500-3k and it will sell. When they ask silly prices like 4K they sit. Now, an original 81-83 JCM 800 will go for 1500 as will a JMP master volume from 76-80...those have jumped UP in price and are selling for that. So, for me at least the prices have stayed the same for much of what I am interested in, and even gone up in some cases(SLO, Cameron). So I really don't see the buyers market at all for amps that I would be interested in, at least.

Vintage pointy Charvels have gone up as well...a real deal early/mid 80s USA with a Kahler, just a couple yrs ago you could buy one for 1K or less. Now, 1500 for a Kahler...and 2500 or more for a Floyded version. Those were under 2K not too long ago.

There certainly are exceptions but generally speaking it's a saturated market. It seems many are downsizing their collections or looking for portability. I agree some classic items are doing well on resale, but for how long? Time will tell where it's all heading. ...now, sell my SLO? Or dump it at a profit & X my fingers I can pick one up later after the hype dies down? Decisions, decisions

 

[Goat]

I took the digital plunge several times over the years. I get fatigued by the sound of digital after an hour, two at the most. This never happens with tube amplification. I can't explain it, that's just the way it is.

 

[Rick Lee]

I don't see how Friedmans will retain their value. And that's not at all a knock on their quality. They grow on trees now. A year ago a local GC had a new BE-100 on a blowout sale for $2499. When they went from PTP to PCB, but didn't go down a dime in price, that was gonna eventually put a dent in resale value. Soldanos are going for big money now, but I wonder if that will continue once BAD is really cranking them out in big numbers. I have a good buddy who gigs 50x a year with a Soldano Decatone, has done it for 10+ years and has recently gone to a Fractal.

 

[jsp]

It would make sense if the amp market declined over time. It would seem more of a steady decline, though, not a sudden burst of any bubble. Rock/hard rock/metal seems to be declining in popularity, especially with the younger generation, so the amp buying market is aging and reducing. And for the younger generation, mired in student debt and with home ownership rates falling, digital is a no-brainer at apartment volumes compared to a 50+ watt tube amp. You're picking between endless choices of really good sounds, compared to maybe 1-4 sounds that would be awesome except they're completely unusable for your situation. And, for gigging, it may feel awesome for the player to have a bunch of air moving behind your pant legs, but the audience doesn't give a shit. They mainly care if they can hear everything, and the best way to do that is with low stage volume and having the PA do the heavy lifting. Even Meshuggah, when they got their totally awesome tailor-made boutique tube amps, used them direct through Torpedo Lives.

But, trends can be cyclical, so who knows what will happen in the future with popularity of rock music and/or big tube amps.

 

[skullfxr]

@JSP plenty of good blues guys around here that are climbing up the ranks. As far as metal, I see more people going digital which is a bummer, but I VERY rarely see a good blues guy with a digital rig. Blues is a rebirth in Tampa.

 

[blackba]

It would make sense if the amp market declined over time. It would seem more of a steady decline, though, not a sudden burst of any bubble. Rock/hard rock/metal seems to be declining in popularity, especially with the younger generation, so the amp buying market is aging and reducing. And for the younger generation, mired in student debt and with home ownership rates falling, digital is a no-brainer at apartment volumes compared to a 50+ watt tube amp. You're picking between endless choices of really good sounds, compared to maybe 1-4 sounds that would be awesome except they're completely unusable for your situation. And, for gigging, it may feel awesome for the player to have a bunch of air moving behind your pant legs, but the audience doesn't give a shit. They mainly care if they can hear everything, and the best way to do that is with low stage volume and having the PA do the heavy lifting. Even Meshuggah, when they got their totally awesome tailor-made boutique tube amps, used them direct through Torpedo Lives.

But, trends can be cyclical, so who knows what will happen in the future with popularity of rock music and/or big tube amps.

Very good points. Low or no stage volume is the wave of the future for sure. Small, light weight tube amps still seem to be pretty easy to sell, but big iron for the most part sits.

On the PA front powered speakers is what everyone wants. I have passive speakers and power amps and can't give them away, so they just get used in my basement. Just kind of the way things are these days, convenience is the #1 attribute people are looking for, can't blame them, since so am I.

 

[Beandust]

Yup! Pending what it is I guess. Dont see SLO prices slashed in half or eleven 3rds. Some of the highly
regarded tube amps decreasing in value is really like buying digital! Axe ,2,3, and so on. New year means last years digital software is dated. Wouldn't think this would apply to tube amps... unless of course you are overcharged and the value isnt really what it's being sold for!!! I agree its retail so mark up exist but damn, 50% is like getting charged 2x for one happy ending lol. Ask Mr Kraft

 

[Beandust]

I don't see how Friedmans will retain their value. And that's not at all a knock on their quality. They grow on trees now. A year ago a local GC had a new BE-100 on a blowout sale for $2499. When they went from PTP to PCB, but didn't go down a dime in price, that was gonna eventually put a dent in resale value. Soldanos are going for big money now, but I wonder if that will continue once BAD is really cranking them out in big numbers. I have a good buddy who gigs 50x a year with a Soldano Decatone, has done it for 10+ years and has recently gone to a Fractal.

Which year BE100 has a PCB? Got a pic of that? Or are you calling the higbryd board with hand soldering a PCB? Its black and a plastic board I believe? PCB are fiberglass aren't they?

 

[Rick Lee]

I don't recall the changeover year, just that there was no reduction in price, though there was obviously a reduction in production cost. I've only owned a SB and that was about four years ago. I don't think I ever pulled the chassis.

 

[Beandust]

I don't recall the changeover year, just that there was no reduction in price, though there was obviously a reduction in production cost. I've only owned a SB and that was about four years ago. I don't think I ever pulled the chassis.

That's because there is no year or model of a BE100 that would ever be able to be re-called with a PCB. Interesting you mentioned that but have not seen inside one. I've never seen anyone post that a BE100 has or had a PCB. Nothing against PCB amps either. It's a hybrid board as mentioned. It's still PTP wiring. Check the images. Pretty self explanatory. Has it dropped in price.. yes. Is a slo PCB I believe it is and its 5k+ currently and was 4k+ before the end of days* sale. Mike Soldano explains his theory on PCB and they are more expensive to make in a proto type build than PTP, he as well says more reliable. Says his transformers are military grade" and US made. So maybe the circuit boards are not as cheap as one would think.

 

[Rick Lee]

Those DeYoung trannies in SLOs are indeed expensive, but they're done. The BAD-made Soldanos will have something else in them. Can't remember what, but I recall Mike saying he had found another supplier. Soldano prices are crazy now because they are no longer being made and everyone knows the next generation will be done by BAD in LA and not by Mike in Seattle. I will be very surprised if the next generation of SLOs cost any less than the last one was going for new when still in production, which was around $4200, IIRC. I saw Mike at NAMM this year, but he was mobbed and I didn't ask him about it.

 

[Racerxrated]

I don't recall the changeover year, just that there was no reduction in price, though there was obviously a reduction in production cost. I've only owned a SB and that was about four years ago. I don't think I ever pulled the chassis.

That's because there is no year or model of a BE100 that would ever be able to be re-called with a PCB. Interesting you mentioned that but have not seen inside one. I've never seen anyone post that a BE100 has or had a PCB. Nothing against PCB amps either. It's a hybrid board as mentioned. It's still PTP wiring. Check the images. Pretty self explanatory. Has it dropped in price.. yes. Is a slo PCB I believe it is and its 5k+ currently and was 4k+ before the end of days* sale. Mike Soldano explains his theory on PCB and they are more expensive to make in a proto type build than PTP, he as well says more reliable. Says his transformers are military grade" and US made. So maybe the circuit boards are not as cheap as one would think.

Just for argument's sake, I don't feel any special "mojo" when it comes to PTP(turret board) vs PCB..a circuits a circuit....that said.....I had a 2012 BE 100 that I believe was the first/second yr BE. It was PTP turret board and these were contracted out to be wired by some peeps at the Metro forum, or so I've read. It had a mod to make it more open/traditional Marshall sounding while still being able to do the 'smooth' typical BE tone. Also had a solo volume added. Very cool amp. I think that when they went to a mass produced PCB board/hybrid hand wired deal the expectation was a little reduction in cost..but that didn't happen. So that's where some were a little disappointed.

 

[skullfxr]

My thoughts on PCB's are if they are a QUALITY board. Heavier boards and thick traces make the decision factor for me TBH. I personally feel that a good PCB has no major disadvantage in comparison to turret board. Shitty PCB's are where the problem lies.

Also for another side of thought is M/B. can you imagine wiring a JP2C on turret board? I would just flat call it damn near impossible with amps with that level of complexity. Mesas sound great and are extremely resilient and reliable.

Obviously the BE-100 is much less complex, and it is doable, so I would prefer it turret. However saying that, I don't think Dave is using shitty PCB.

 

[Beandust]

https://i.imgur.com/Iw3vF5l.jpg




Doesnt look like any PCB I've seen.

 

[Rick Lee]

https://i.imgur.com/Iw3vF5l.jpg




Doesnt look like any PCB I've seen.

Looks like it had to be done in a solder bath, but I don't see any traces in the board. I would find this board way, way easier to work on than a Marshall-type PCB. I have built a few clones with turret boards and I have done some wrenching on modern Marshall PCBs. PCBs scare me because I'm not real good at lifting them and doing things correctly without fear of damaging a trace or two. Just had my pro tech fix my DSL50 and I just don't have his skills for working on a PCB. But that cheapo amp is probably my best sounding Marshall, and I have/had some nice ones. And, not a knock on Dave, but his pedals are so good that I don't see the need to spring for one of his amps. Flame away.

 

[Beandust]

All good. I dont necessarily hold any regard for PCB or PTP or whatever this hybrid thing board is.. I've had many amps that sound great regardless of PCB. I'm no amp snob. I've had ups and downs with many efforts chasing tone. A 2205 someone jacked the bias on was probably the funniest amp I've played. But the volume wasnt stable sometimes. But man it was intense.

Guess what I am trying to say is , is this board considered PCB? Not boasting about it either way. The amp sounds good I've always thought.

 

[fusedbrain]

https://i.imgur.com/Iw3vF5l.jpg




Doesnt look like any PCB I've seen.

Yeah, that's what is being referred to as a hybrid pcb.
There are large copper traces in the board for the b+, the DC for the relays, and other inter-connects, but all the caps, resistors etc mount in massive through plated eyelets like you see in old fender amps.
You maintain all the benefits of turret construction for service-ability, but eliminate a ton of wiring that would otherwise need to be done by hand.
I've worked on a few of these Friedman boards, and they are extremely high quality and very robust. Component changes ( like swapping all the 150's for Synergy's on older amps) is a breeze.
I dont see a downside personally.....

 

[JimAnsell]

Just kind of the way things are these days, convenience is the #1 attribute people are looking for, can't blame them, since so am I.

most americans would trade quality for convenience all day, in every aspect of life. that is a whole other thread.