Cable length and effects loop. Dulling my tone

[bubbastain]

I'm getting ready to buy a Pedaltrain Jr pretty soon and I'm figuring out what I'm going to use and how. Signal chain will be Guitar> Homemade Volume stomp> Boss TU-2> Radial Big Shot ABY>>output A into Amp 1, ouput B >BBE Green Screamer> Amp B. I'm going to be running a TC Flashback and Digitech Hardwire Tremolo pedal in the loop of Amp B. I need to get some more cables for the loop pedals but am concerned about length and tone dulling(suckage). The amp is a VTM 60. I know it probably has the most basic of loops, but it's there. I tried it out first using two 1 foot cables for the Send/Return and it's fine. No noticeable suckage. Obviously I cant have them on my pedal board with a 1 foot cable. I tried using two 18'6" cables and it dulled my tone enough to bother me. I threw my Boss tuner in there before the Return to see if maybe the buffer in it would help. Nope. Now I don't need 18 footers for this, but I don't want my pedal board right in front of my amp either. What length are you guys running for your loop pedals? Any other recommendations that might help?

 

[dawnofdreamx97]

the cable run shouldn't really change it that much, sounds like only the return is buffered on the fx loop and not the send or maybe vice versa maybe... which will make that happen.

I run a rapco custom snake that has a send, return, and guitar line for the front input of the amp, and power and a footswitch trs line. each cable is 40 feet, plus i plug into my tuner to guitar with a 15 foot cable. Really barely any signal loss, because my loop compensates for the impedance ... Basically in a nut shell, mod the fx loop and you should be good.

 

[bubbastain]

the cable run shouldn't really change it that much, sounds like only the return is buffered on the fx loop and not the send or maybe vice versa maybe... which will make that happen.

I run a rapco custom snake that has a send, return, and guitar line for the front input of the amp, and power and a footswitch trs line. each cable is 40 feet, plus i plug into my tuner to guitar with a 15 foot cable. Really barely any signal loss, because my loop compensates for the impedance ... Basically in a nut shell, mod the fx loop and you should be good.

What would need to be done to improve the loop? Could an aftermarket loop be wired in pretty easily (if there is room) ? Running it with the 1 foot return/send cables didn't change the sound at all(or at least not enough for my ears to notice).

 

[steve_k]

What sort of loop is in the VTM? Is it tube buffered? Is the tone actually dulled or is there a volume drop?

 

[bubbastain]

What sort of loop is in the VTM? Is it tube buffered? Is the tone actually dulled or is there a volume drop?

I don't know what kind of loop it has. I'll try to find out. There really is no volume drop. It just dulls out/looses a bit of brightness enough to not dig it. Or at least with 18' cables it does. No change in tone with the one foot cables.

 

[steve_k]

FWIW, FX loops are my Achilles heel. What works at home, I can never make work at a gig volume. Which, is why I don't mess with them and run everything up front. But, that's me. And, there's lots of good loops out there. Mike Fortin has it worked out, as does Peter Diezel. At the very least though, you need to have some sort of FX loop return level to make a variety of gear work.

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

Another option would be for you to set up a W/D rig, taking a compensated line out signal from dry Amp 1 into the pedals then to the FX return of the PV for all your wet signal. But, buying a few widgets will end up costing more than the amp if you aren't careful.

Steve

 

[hthomas]

Try it with the exact length cable your going to use live and see how it is. Might help the problem if it's shorter than 18ft.

 

[bubbastain]

FWIW, FX loops are my Achilles heel. What works at home, I can never make work at a gig volume. Which, is why I don't mess with them and run everything up front. But, that's me. And, there's lots of good loops out there. Mike Fortin has it worked out, as does Peter Diezel. At the very least though, you need to have some sort of FX loop return level to make a variety of gear work.

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

Another option would be for you to set up a W/D rig, taking a compensated line out signal from dry Amp 1 into the pedals then to the FX return of the PV for all your wet signal. But, buying a few widgets will end up costing more than the amp if you aren't careful.

Steve

Thanks. I actually just cut one of my 18'6' cables in half and made two 9 footers. The dullness is still there but not as much. I can live with it. Nine feet is long enough to give me some space between my amp and soon to be pedal board. I'm actually setting it up as a W/D deal already. Amp A (dry) is my Fortin modded VTM120. It's tight, mean, brighter and just badass. Amp two(wet) is a mostly stock VTM 60. It's sounds good as a darker, looser, sludgier counterpart to the other amp. I'll run the Tremolo and Flashback in the loop for a subtle effect here and there. They sound insanely good together. Most of it being the Fortin VTM.

This is my first time using effects and the loop on an amp ever. Always just plugged straight in. Never cared about the loop before. I do like the way each of those pedals sounds in the loop better than in front though. I'll experiment a little more. I'll only use each of them occasionally though so it's not a major deal.

 

[rlord1974]

Two runs of 18' cable to and from your pedals shouldn't degrade your tone, provided you have adequate buffering in your loop circuit.

I highly recommend you look into getting an Egnater Loop Level Matcher (also known as the "Loop Gadget"). It has separate Send and Return level controls and is buffered on BOTH the Send and Return legs. I bought it to use with my Egnater MOD50, which has a line level loop like your VTM, and I needed to change the impedance to be instrument level to get along with my pedalboard. The Egnater Loop Gadget works brilliantly for this. No signal or tone degradation whatsoever!

Plus, it also works its magic with all of my other amps with loops!

 

[JerryP]

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

The VTM is not a SS loop. It's a tube loop, but the send is not buffered. Works great, but not for long runs.
Jerry

 

[dawnofdreamx97]

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

The VTM is not a SS loop. It's a tube loop, but the send is not buffered. Works great, but not for long runs.
Jerry

yep that's that's exactly what i figured, i learned that one real quick a few weeks ago ! when i was experimenting with making fx loops... You can have jerry p wire it up so both the send and retun are buffered and it will that ....

 

[bubbastain]

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

The VTM is not a SS loop. It's a tube loop, but the send is not buffered. Works great, but not for long runs.
Jerry

Ahh. So that explains why I don't hear any difference when I put my pedal on top of the amp and use a pair of 1 foot cables. Going to the 9 footers causes some dullness and the 18 footers even more so. Thanks for the info.

 

[JerryP]

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

The VTM is not a SS loop. It's a tube loop, but the send is not buffered. Works great, but not for long runs.
Jerry

Ahh. So that explains why I don't hear any difference when I put my pedal on top of the amp and use a pair of 1 foot cables. Going to the 9 footers causes some dullness and the 18 footers even more so. Thanks for the info.

Just thought of something that might help. Come out of the amp into a Boss pedal on top of the amp (something you don't need on the floor) and then out of that thru the long run into your other pedals. A pedal at the amp that is buffered may help drive a longer run.
Jerry

 

[bubbastain]

The VTM is just a SS series insert loop without any send/return level. It is a -10db loop, which is not going to take instrument level pedals very well at all. As Nick mentioned, an impedance box which will allow you to better match pedals to loop or something like a Suhr Minimix to really tune it up and make it a parallel loop.

The VTM is not a SS loop. It's a tube loop, but the send is not buffered. Works great, but not for long runs.
Jerry

Ahh. So that explains why I don't hear any difference when I put my pedal on top of the amp and use a pair of 1 foot cables. Going to the 9 footers causes some dullness and the 18 footers even more so. Thanks for the info.

Just thought of something that might help. Come out of the amp into a Boss pedal on top of the amp (something you don't need on the floor) and then out of that thru the long run into your other pedals. A pedal at the amp that is buffered may help drive a longer run.
Jerry

I did something similar except I had the Boss pedal between my effects and the return jack. I'll try it between the send jack and the effects. Thanks Jerry.

 

[bubbastain]

Yup! That did it. I put a Boss pedal between the Send and my Digitech Hardwire Tremolo pedal and it took away the dullness even with the long 18' cables. So I guess as long as I have a buffered pedal first (after the send jack) I should be okay. I only plan on running a TC Flashback and the Tremolo. The Tremolo pedal is true bybass, so I'll put that second. The Flashback is switchable between buffered and true bypass. Not sure if the buffer is the same as the Boss pedals but I'll try it. Worst case is I'll just have the unused Boss pedal in the chain. Thanks again Jerry.

 

[dawnofdreamx97]

cool , if you really dig the amp just have the loop modded to buffer both send and return, shouldnt be a big deal at all. I never got why a loop wouldnt have both buffered, so dumb....