Can anyone explain this about pinch harmonics? (Tonal differences)

[messageinblood]

I haven't seen anyone discuss this about the tone when it comes to pinch harmonics. I attached a clip that sounds different between the first half (5150 iconic el34) and the second half (Bias FX patch). The second half sounds the way a pinch harmonic should sound, to me at least. The first half pinch harmonics sound like a dying cat. I've noticed this happens on certain analog amps vs digital plug ins. Is it the type of tubes used? I don't have enough variety of amps with different tubes to test it right now but I can't figure out why it's like this.

Here's a youtuber where the same thing is happening with the same amp I'm using (at 5:19)

My comparison:

 

[Simon Dorn]

That's my thread. lol
Check this out:

 

[messageinblood]

That's my thread. lol
Check this out:

YES, my fellow dying cat sounding pinch harmonic brother. Any idea what causes this?

 

[DrewJD82]

Not sure I hear what sounds like a dying cat, just different amounts of distortion, treble and compression. The Bias clip has quite a bit more of all 3, which is most certainly lending a hand to nice, smooth pinch harmonics. Put a boost in front of the Iconic, even if it's not adding any dirt, and you'll probably even them out.

 

[messageinblood]

Not sure I hear what sounds like a dying cat, just different amounts of distortion, treble and compression. The Bias clip has quite a bit more of all 3, which is most certainly lending a hand to nice, smooth pinch harmonics. Put a boost in front of the Iconic, even if it's not adding any dirt, and you'll probably even them out.

The first tone is what I'm referring to as the dying cat sound, its just a more lifeless whiny squeal sound (also like in the video that 2nd commenter posted). It's just some minor tonal differences but the 2nd half is IMO the way it should sound, unlike the first half. I put a few different boosts in front and it didn't help.

 

[sytharnia1560]

weird, I thought the harmonic sounds way better in the first tone hahaha .. the second one sounded like he didn't quite hit it haha

 

[CDawg]

The first tone is what I'm referring to as the dying cat sound, its just a more lifeless whiny squeal sound (also like in the video that 2nd commenter posted). It's just some minor tonal differences but the 2nd half is IMO the way it should sound, unlike the first half. I put a few different boosts in front and it didn't help.

You have to look at the system (amps, cables, tubes, speakers, etc.) as a whole but as for the tubes they have an effect on bandwidth, compression, resolution and the ability to emphasize specific frequencies. Lots of other variables going on with tubes but those are the important ones related to pinch harmonics imo.

Clip 1 sounds like it's neutered in the treble to me. It's missing musical information from a lack of bandwidth and resolution.

What tubes do you have in the amplifier and for what specific positions? Will you primarily be playing fast tempo music like metal?

V1 = ? V2 = ? V3 = ? V4 = ? PI = ? Power tubes = ?, etc.

 

[messageinblood]

weird, I thought the harmonic sounds way better in the first tone hahaha .. the second one sounded like he didn't quite hit it haha

It just comes down to preference then which is why no one is talking about I guess. Oh well...

 

[messageinblood]

You have to look at the system (amps, cables, tubes, speakers, etc.) as a whole but as for the tubes they have an effect on bandwidth, compression, resolution and the ability to emphasize specific frequencies. Lots of other variables going on with tubes but those are the important ones related to pinch harmonics imo.

Clip 1 sounds like it's neutered in the treble to me. It's missing musical information from a lack of bandwidth and resolution.

What tubes do you have in the amplifier and for what specific positions? Will you primarily be playing fast tempo music like metal?

V1 = ? V2 = ? V3 = ? V4 = ? PI = ? Power tubes = ?, etc.

It definitely sounds like it's missing something, but since I don't know how to describe it well, it sounds like a dying battery even though I was using passive pickups. The first part of the clip was the 5150 iconic el34, two ECC83 preamp tubes and four EL34 power tubes. High gain metal.

 

[Simon Dorn]

YES, my fellow dying cat sounding pinch harmonic brother. Any idea what causes this?

Did you listen to the whole Clip?
The second Part is with the Marshall which reproduces the pinch harmonics like i want to hear them: Open and sweet and NOT crippled and broken as i call it.
I think it has something to do with the gain structure and the openess of the Amp.
You can sometimes get over it by cranking the gain even more.

 

[Simon Dorn]

The first tone is what I'm referring to as the dying cat sound, its just a more lifeless whiny squeal sound (also like in the video that 2nd commenter posted). It's just some minor tonal differences but the 2nd half is IMO the way it should sound, unlike the first half. I put a few different boosts in front and it didn't help.

He's got much worse aka better "dying cat" examples on his channel. Don't know why it doesn't seem to bother him.

 

[CDawg]

It definitely sounds like it's missing something, but since I don't know how to describe it well, it sounds like a dying battery even though I was using passive pickups. The first part of the clip was the 5150 iconic el34, two ECC83 preamp tubes and four EL34 power tubes. High gain metal.

What brand are the preamplifier tubes that youre using? JJ? New Sensor? Shuguang?

 

[Simon Dorn]

What brand are the preamplifier tubes that youre using? JJ? New Sensor? Shuguang?

Who cares about tubes? lol

 

[CDawg]

Who cares about tubes? lol

I can change the sound of a tube with a bottle of alcohol.

 

[messageinblood]

What brand are the preamplifier tubes that youre using? JJ? New Sensor? Shuguang?

Unsure about which brand, it's just the ones that come in the 5150 iconic el34. Just got it, didn't open it up or change anything out.

 

[311boogieman]

This thread is both interesting and extremely confusing at the same time

Unsure about which brand, it's just the ones that come in the 5150 iconic el34. Just got it, didn't open it up or change anything out.

You mean you bought a tube amp and you didn't look to see what kind of tubes are in it?

 

[TheGreatGreen]

The "dying cat" effect is what happens when you pinch the wrong harmonic by hitting the string with your right thumb in the wrong place. It's entirely the result of poor technique. It has nothing to do with tubes vs modeling whatsoever.

Also, the OP's Iconic EL34 vs Bias FX patch is an extremely apples-to-hammers comparison. Not even close to the same things. There's a strange stereo effect happening in the Bias FX patch that's making everything sound super wide, and the gain and EQ curves aren't even in the same universe as the tube amp clips. There's a ton of additional treble and presence coming through in the Bias patch which when paired with the stereo swirl thing going on is just going to make pinch harmonics sound more interesting and cooler. If the tube amp was set with a similar EQ curve and put through the same stereo swirl effect, it would behave much the same way.

Likewise, put the same just-amp-and-cab signal chain in the Bias Fx and use the same right hand technique to do those squeals and it's gonna sound pretty much the same as the tube rig... or as close as the Bias Fx's modeling can get to it anyway.

 

[WizardAmpIphoneClip]

That's my thread. lol
Check this out:

Sounds like Bolt Thrower
That Marshall sounded way better too

 

[messageinblood]

The "dying cat" effect is what happens when you pinch harmonic the wrong note by hitting the string with your right thumb in the wrong place. It's entirely the result of poor technique. It has nothing to do with tubes vs modeling whatsoever.

Also, the OP's Iconic EL34 vs Bias FX patch is an extremely apples-to-hammers comparison. Not even close to the same things. There's a strange stereo effect happening in the Bias FX patch that's making everything sound super wide, and the gain and EQ curves aren't even in the same universe as the tube amp clips. There's a ton of additional treble and presence coming through in the Bias patch which when paired with the stereo swirl thing going on is just going to make pinch harmonics sound more interesting and cooler. If the tube amp was set with a similar EQ curve and put through the same stereo swirl effect, it would behave much the same way.

Likewise, put the same just-amp-and-cab signal chain in the Bias Fx and use the same right hand technique to do those squeals and it's gonna sound pretty much the same as the tube rig... or as close as the Bias Fx's modeling can get to it anyway.

I have to respectfully disagree about the first paragraph my friend... I played the exact same notes and did the pinch harmonics the exact same way in the demo for both. Furthermore, my jcm800 and jcm900 do it with no issues. It is definitely an amp thing, I just don't know what it is about certain amps that cause it.

 

[messageinblood]

This thread is both interesting and extremely confusing at the same time




You mean you bought a tube amp and you didn't look to see what kind of tubes are in it?

Ya, it's not a big deal. I don't have a specific tube preference tbh. The amp sounds great other than the pinch harmonic issue.