Can anyone explain this about pinch harmonics? (Tonal differences)

[311boogieman]

Ya, it's not a big deal. I don't have a specific tube preference tbh. The amp sounds great other than the pinch harmonic issue.

I was mostly kidding and generally agree. You've been here longer than I so I figured you knew what were doing. Although I have noticed better harmonics with better tubes (at times). I bet you could get better pinch harmonics off the Iconic if you messed with some things. Also, I've never heard of anyone using rubbing alcohol to clean tube pins. Don't you want to lubricate them a bit with something like Dioxit? That's what I use. Also, assuming your 2 clips were back to back( same guitar / strings). I find dead strings are deadening.

 

[CDawg]

I was mostly kidding and generally agree. You've been here longer than I so I figured you knew what were doing. Although I have noticed better harmonics with better tubes (at times). I bet you could get better pinch harmonics off the Iconic if you messed with some things. Also, I've never heard of anyone using rubbing alcohol to clean tube pins. Don't you want to lubricate them a bit with something like Dioxit? That's what I use. Also, assuming your 2 clips were back to back( same guitar / strings). I find dead strings are deadening.

I've heard of guys doing it with deoxit too. I just did it as a quick test and was shocked by -1 dbv noise changes from 10 minutes of rubbing alcohol and a few scrubs of a tooth brush. It should be done with abrasives and chemicals. I got a good tutorial from someone and probably going to make a good video on it that looks a little more credible and credit them because it's really helpful for anyone if you can squeeze a dbv or two out of every triode/tube in an amplifier.

It's not just the corrosion, oxidation or shit on your fingers. It's the residue of gas and glass on the pins from the tube manufacturing process that is the big problem.

 

[shadow]

I've heard of guys doing it with deoxit too. I just did it as a quick test and was shocked by -1 dbv noise changes from 10 minutes of rubbing alcohol and a few scrubs of a tooth brush. It should be done with abrasives and chemicals. I got a good tutorial from someone and probably going to make a good video on it that looks a little more credible and credit them because it's really helpful for anyone if you can squeeze a dbv or two out of every triode/tube in an amplifier.

It's not just the corrosion, oxidation or shit on your fingers. It's the residue of gas and glass on the pins from the tube manufacturing process that is the big problem.

View attachment 418722

1. I wish someone would do a modern marvels video on tube making. I would love to see how they put those fine grid threads on there.
2. I think it's the circuit-design-induced frequency content (not the eq of the amp) of the gain that makes the frequency content of the pinch harmonics more or less audible. Generally, more upper mids/highs = less dying cat, imo.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

I have to respectfully disagree about the first paragraph my friend... I played the exact same notes and did the pinch harmonics the exact same way in the demo for both. Furthermore, my jcm800 and jcm900 do it with no issues. It is definitely an amp thing, I just don't know what it is about certain amps that cause it.

Would you mind making a recording of your JCM 800 and JCM 900 reproducing pinch harmonics the way you want to hear them and then posting it? Your Bias FX patch is so vastly different than however you recorded the Iconic that it's really impossible to tell.

And while we're talking about it, what exactly was your recording chain with the Iconic? What cab did you use? What mic? Also, please post the details of the Bias FX patch you're using including whatever stereo effect is built into it.

 

[311boogieman]

I've heard of guys doing it with deoxit too. I just did it as a quick test and was shocked by -1 dbv noise changes from 10 minutes of rubbing alcohol and a few scrubs of a tooth brush. It should be done with abrasives and chemicals. I got a good tutorial from someone and probably going to make a good video on it that looks a little more credible and credit them because it's really helpful for anyone if you can squeeze a dbv or two out of every triode/tube in an amplifier.

It's not just the corrosion, oxidation or shit on your fingers. It's the residue of gas and glass on the pins from the tube manufacturing process that is the big problem.

View attachment 418722

Speaking of quoting people. I meant to quote you on the alcohol thing. And why abrasives and chemicals? Sounds terrible

PS: never use a used toothbrush - yours looks new

Would you mind making a recording of your JCM 800 and JCM 900 reproducing pinch harmonics the way you want to hear them and then posting it? Your Bias FX patch is so vastly different than however you recorded the Iconic that it's really impossible to tell.

And while we're talking about it, what exactly was your recording chain with the Iconic? What cab did you use? What mic? Also, please post the details of the Bias FX patch you're using including whatever stereo effect is built into it.

The second Bias clip also sounds like it is in stereo, or panned at least which made is seem fuller

 

[CDawg]

1. I wish someone would do a modern marvels video on tube making. I would love to see how they put those fine grid threads on there.
2. I think it's the circuit-design-induced frequency content (not the eq of the amp) of the gain that makes the frequency content of the pinch harmonics more or less audible. Generally, more upper mids/highs = less dying cat, imo.

1 I bet some of the modern tube companies have some wicked videos. EAT, EML, KR, Moon, etc.





2 I think everything has to work together. Amp, speakers, tubes, etc. one weak link kills information. They have frequency ranges they operate best in.

TELL US THE TUBES!

 

[CDawg]

Speaking of quoting people. I meant to quote you on the alcohol thing. And why abrasives and chemicals? Sounds terrible

PS: never use a used toothbrush - yours looks new





The second Bias clip also sounds like it is in stereo, or panned at least which made is seem fuller

From what I was told the chemicals alone doesn't remove all the residue on regular pins. Gold pins chemicals only because they already did this process hopefully. I'll be playing around with that stuff soon and seeing what I can do. Haven't gone that far yet myself but it makes a lot of sense and after a quick test with alcohol/toothbrush on 3 different tubes I was convinced enough to order some supplies and go further. We'll see what happens in a month when my stuff arrives.

That was a new toothbrush!

 

[messageinblood]

Would you mind making a recording of your JCM 800 and JCM 900 reproducing pinch harmonics the way you want to hear them and then posting it? Your Bias FX patch is so vastly different than however you recorded the Iconic that it's really impossible to tell.

And while we're talking about it, what exactly was your recording chain with the Iconic? What cab did you use? What mic? Also, please post the details of the Bias FX patch you're using including whatever stereo effect is built into it.

Sure, attached below... The 1st clip is the 5150 iconic el34 (one in the previous clip). 2nd quick one is the jcm800, 3rd is the jcm900. I know the eqing is different in these but the sound I'm talking about definitely has to do with the actual amp components, I just don't know what though.

The signal chain for all of these is just the amp > UA ox box > DAW (no mics). Guitar is the same for the 5150 iconic and jcm900. JCM800 is an ESP EII Eclipse with EMGs.

The JCMs nail it, even my SLO mini nails it (not in clip) but there's just some amps that don't do it. I wish someone would know exactly what causes it, it's definitely a component aspect of certain amps.

 

[messageinblood]

I was mostly kidding and generally agree. You've been here longer than I so I figured you knew what were doing. Although I have noticed better harmonics with better tubes (at times). I bet you could get better pinch harmonics off the Iconic if you messed with some things. Also, I've never heard of anyone using rubbing alcohol to clean tube pins. Don't you want to lubricate them a bit with something like Dioxit? That's what I use. Also, assuming your 2 clips were back to back( same guitar / strings). I find dead strings are deadening.

I forgot how old my account is, time flies. Yes, clips were back to back same guitar. Uploaded a new one in the comment above for another user. I'd like to think I know what I'm doing, sometimes. ha ha

 

[CDawg]

Sure, attached below... The 1st clip is the 5150 iconic el34 (one in the previous clip). 2nd quick one is the jcm800, 3rd is the jcm900. I know the eqing is different in these but the sound I'm talking about definitely has to do with the actual amp components, I just don't know what though.

The signal chain for all of these is just the amp > UA ox box > DAW (no mics). Guitar is the same for the 5150 iconic and jcm900. JCM800 is an ESP EII Eclipse with EMGs.

The JCMs nail it, even my SLO mini nails it (not in clip) but there's just some amps that don't do it. I wish someone would know exactly what causes it, it's definitely a component aspect of certain amps.

Please open up your amplifier and take multiple clear picture of your tubes or tell us what they specifically are.

I'm betting there's JJ tubes in the 5150 and that's why your harmonics sound the way they do.

 

[Omnipotent1]

Ima go on a whim here & say that anytime I’ve experienced this is has been 100% amp related & is simply just overtones / extreme saturation from the distortion circuit… maybe try dialing back the gain & see if that clears things up up Nothing worse than that dying cat sound.. F’n terrible…

 

[messageinblood]

Please open up your amplifier and take multiple clear picture of your tubes or tell us what they specifically are.

I'm betting there's JJ tubes in the 5150 and that's why your harmonics sound the way they do.

Just checked. The 5150 iconic el34 has the PSVANE el34c. JCM900 has the Mullard el34s. Don't have the jcm800 currently to check. I also have an original 89 SLO that has JJ 6L6gc that nails the pinch harmonic sound that I'm talking about as well...

 

[messageinblood]

Ima go on a whim here & say that anytime I’ve experienced this is has been 100% amp related & is simply just overtones / extreme saturation from the distortion circuit… maybe try dialing back the gain & see if that clears things up up Nothing worse than that dying cat sound.. F’n terrible…

I dialed the gain back, played straight through, lowered gain, etc... Still there, sounds like you know the sound as well. It's f'n terrible indeed....

 

[tjnx]

I think this is eq / circuit specific. I improved it on my amp by going with low capacitance cables and a buffer right after the guitar. I tried a few amps over the weekend where the harmonics just effortlessly jumped out like in your example, so there's something going on inside vs technique.

Dimebag used a wah but that could be a pain with pinches, eq maybe? Maybe you could see if a wah helps

 

[Devin]

Gobs of gain and compression are what you're looking for to really make them metal squealies sound right

 

[Dale B]

2. I think it's the circuit-design-induced frequency content (not the eq of the amp) of the gain that makes the frequency content of the pinch harmonics more or less audible. Generally, more upper mids/highs = less dying cat, imo.

Yep! Basically, the preamp circuit will be voiced a certain way where there is a cutoff frequency for each amplification stage. There could be steep shelving at a particular frequency that isn't pleasing to someone's ear. This can be adjusted, but the end result may not be all that great depending on the design that follows. That's basically the gist of it.

 

[311boogieman]

Just checked. The 5150 iconic el34 has the PSVANE el34c. JCM900 has the Mullard el34s. Don't have the jcm800 currently to check. I also have an original 89 SLO that has JJ 6L6gc that nails the pinch harmonic sound that I'm talking about as well...

We meant pre amp tubes

I can see a cheap or dying preamp tube in your 5150 Iconic being an issue. The Iconic is an 'affordable' 5150 variant right? Meaning it may not have all the goods quality wise. That's a guess. And just because a tube is 'new' doesn't mean it doesn't have issues. Better tubes = better tone. Most everything else is equal regarding guitar, cables, speakers/emulation, recording method, technique right?

I also think the 'shelving of frequencies' thing like @Dale B is saying is a real thing too.

Please open up your amplifier and take multiple clear picture of your tubes or tell us what they specifically are.

I'm betting there's JJ tubes in the 5150 and that's why your harmonics sound the way they do.

Man, I use JJ's all the time and have no issue getting decent pinch harmonics. I know people bag on them a lot but I like them. What is your direct experience like? Too dark?


old sample with JJs

 

[CDawg]

We meant pre amp tubes

I can see a cheap or dying preamp tube in your 5150 Iconic being an issue. The Iconic is an 'affordable' 5150 variant right? Meaning it may not have all the goods quality wise. That's a guess. And just because a tube is 'new' doesn't mean it doesn't have issues. Better tubes = better tone. Most everything else is equal regarding guitar, cables, speakers/emulation, recording method, technique right?

I also think the 'shelving of frequencies' thing like @Dale B is saying is a real thing too.



Man, I use JJ's all the time and have no issue getting decent pinch harmonics. I know people bag on them a lot but I like them. What is your direct experience like? Too dark?


old sample with JJs

I look at tubes like spices for a steak. I've tried a few tubes and I make my decisions around tempo mostly. Microphonics and noise are next. My gain stages for a 5150 or a Mesa Mark I want triodes that measure -87 to -89.5 in gain stages (going higher now with pin cleaning). Rectos or other amps I'd go lower like -85/-86 in gain stages. Something like a phase inverter position I'd be willing to go much lower like -82 because it's not as critical.

I don't think JJs are terrible but I don't like them for playing metal. I'd much rather have CSF, Grammont Malakoff, Siemens or a Tungsram Tillburg over a JJ.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Sure, attached below... The 1st clip is the 5150 iconic el34 (one in the previous clip). 2nd quick one is the jcm800, 3rd is the jcm900. I know the eqing is different in these but the sound I'm talking about definitely has to do with the actual amp components, I just don't know what though.

The signal chain for all of these is just the amp > UA ox box > DAW (no mics). Guitar is the same for the 5150 iconic and jcm900. JCM800 is an ESP EII Eclipse with EMGs.

The JCMs nail it, even my SLO mini nails it (not in clip) but there's just some amps that don't do it. I wish someone would know exactly what causes it, it's definitely a component aspect of certain amps.

Thanks!

You say the chain is "amp > ox box > DAW" but are the IR's and post effects all the exact same with each amp? Because it doesn't really sound like it. Specifically the 800 sounds like there's some spacial effects going on that aren't in the other clips.

If it is, then I'd recommend cranking the bejesus out of the Iconic 5150's Presence and probably turn up the Treble also. The way you have the amp dialed, the entire tone, not just the pinch harmonics, sounds like it's kind of under a blanket compared to the other amps.

Until you put all the amps in the exact same scenarios, you can't really be sure. Like, it sounds like what you're looking for in pinch harmonics is the explosive sizzle that happens somewhere in the 5-6kHz range. Try emphasizing those frequencies in post... like this:

The first part of this clip is your Iconic clip exactly as you posted it, the next part is that same clip but with some post-EQ applied:


The post-EQ:

It might not sound exactly like the JCM 800 or 900, but all I did was add that post EQ curve and it got a lot closer. It could probably be made to get even closer with a more sophisticated post-EQ as well. I don't think there's anything magic happening in the other amps, and I don't think the Iconic is designed in a way that can't do pinch harmonics well.

 

[messageinblood]

I think this is eq / circuit specific. I improved it on my amp by going with low capacitance cables and a buffer right after the guitar. I tried a few amps over the weekend where the harmonics just effortlessly jumped out like in your example, so there's something going on inside vs technique.

Dimebag used a wah but that could be a pain with pinches, eq maybe? Maybe you could see if a wah helps

Def think it's circuit specific. Wah didn't help either but I would want to be able to do it without a wah engaged anyway.

We meant pre amp tubes

Packed up the head already but the internet is saying it has the JJ 12AX7 / ECC83.

Thanks for doing that eq comparision but the problem is still there even in the 2nd part. Def seems like a circuit thing about certain heads as another poster mentioned.