channel masters vs. power amp

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Chris R

Chris R

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Guys,

How do you like to run your amp/preamp? Do you favor cranking the channel masters and adjusting the amp master to gig/practice volume, or do you crank the power amp and keep the channel masters low?

Here is why I ask: I finally got around to re-doing my rig. M4, pedal switcher, Mod50 with DLX, VX, SL, EG3/4, and COD. I have found that the Mod50 sends a really hot signal when the masters are way up. So does the M4. Because of this, i have not incorporated any serial effects (just to hot even with a pad). But, I like the way it sounds. So, I've only used the parallel loop.

When setting this all up, The switcher was squealing badly when I used my normal channel settings. So, I moved my cleaner modules to the M4, using a hotter channel master setting and lower gain. I put the COD and EG 3/4 into the head and turned the channel masters way down to eliminate the squealing and turned the power amp to 2 o'clock/turned the density down. The amp had a ton more pop to it but seemed to lose just some top end bite and just felt different (not sure if it was a good different yet).

So, which do you prefer and why? Hot channel masters, lower master or low channel masters, hot power amp? Thanks in advance.
 
My channel masters on the DLX are around 10:30, the VX is around 1:00 o'clock, the SL2x & EG5 are around 11:00 o'clock.
Since, I use a G-Force for Reverb, Chorus & Delay only, this is where my masters ended at without clipping/unity gain and it works really well for me.
Then I use the amps master as my master volume.
 
That makes sense. I am going to try out the gain structure you've suggested as a starting point.

I guess my followup question is, am I just approaching the channel masters' setup incorrectly? Should I be viewing them more as a send level and using gain to articulate the sound of the preamp, or do they actually contribute to the sound of the module (if that makes sense)? My ears say hot channel masters, low power amp, parallel loop. I've grown accustomed to the sound and settings. But if all I am doing is sending more signal to the power amp and not affecting the tone of the preamp, then I should be able to get the same relative tone by keeping the send low and compensating with the power amp... :confused:
 
I remember Jeff recommending running the master higher, like 2:00, then adjust your channel masters to level/taste. So, that's normally the way I do it as well.
 
i keep the channel volumes on my renegade at almost full and then just adjust the master volume as needed depending on where i'm playing at. seems to work the best for me.
 
Good questions. A guitar amp is not that different from any other type of audio gear that has gain stages with volume knobs between them. By that I mean, for example, a mixing console typically has an input gain control that controls the gain of the preamp, similar to the gain knob on a guitar amp. Next on the mixer is the channel fader, which could be compared to the volume knob on a guitar amp channel. The last level control on the mixer is the main output faders/volume which are basically the same function as the MAIN master on the guitar amp. In between the channel volume and the MAIN master is the effects loop. So what did we just explain? Your guitar comes into the preamp and goes first to the gain control. It is at this stage that you create the distortion/tone etc. Now your "conditioned" signal/tone goes into the channel volume (fader). This knob also controls the amount of signal that is sent to the effects loop and also to the internal reverb circuit (if there is one). The gain and tone controls are simply set to get the sound you want. The channel volume controls are there so that you can "balance" the levels of each channel in relation to each other (just like on the mixing console). The MAIN master makes it easy to adjust your overall volume without having to readjust each individual channel.
As far as what is the "correct way" to set the channel volumes vs the MAIN volume....you should have a reasonable balance between the channels meaning they should not all be full up with the MAIN master just "cracked" open because a few bad things can happen. One you will be sending a very hot signal to the loop and the internal reverb. This can (and will) cause your effects to overload and also distort the internal reverb. You could also be distorting the effects send circuit which will surely "color" the tone is some way. It also makes it harder to play quietly because the MAIN master will be very sensitive. It also is not really recommended to have the MAIN master full up and use the channel volumes for all your adjustments, mainly because you would no longer have the convenience of turning one knob up or down to change the overall volume on the fly. A practical setting for the MAIN master is probably between noonish and about 3:00 depending on how loud you play. Just like on a mixing console, you would not have all the channel faders full up and the MAIN volume down because you would be overloading circuit stages that are after the channels but before the master. You would also not set the MAIN master up so high that you can only "crack" open the channel volumes with it getting too loud. If you have one of the newer Egnater amps, the manuals do show some good starting points to get you in the ballpark. On the modular stuff, I suggest setting the master on your cleanest module to around 3:00-4:00 and the gain around 9:00-11:00 and see where your main master ends up according to how loud you play. The point is you should have some reasonable balance between the channel volumes and MAIN volume so that none are almost off while the others are full up. FYI, because we just learned that the loop and reverb are after the channel masters but before the MAIN, you can think of the channel volumes as send controls and the MAIN master as the effects return.
 
But there is a difference in sound depending on how you set these controls. At least on the Mod50. If you for example max out the master and keep the preamp volumes low you get a noticable more in your face sound. Brighter and more open, at least to me. As compared to when you do the opposite way and reach the same volume level. Darker and perhaps fuller. Why is this?
 
But there is a difference in sound depending on how you set these controls. At least on the Mod50. If you for example max out the master and keep the preamp volumes low you get a noticable more in your face sound. Brighter and more open, at least to me. As compared to when you do the opposite way and reach the same volume level. Darker and perhaps fuller. Why is this?
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Agreed. I always thought that some of the eq/effect settings that were posted here produced undesirable results for me. I always equated it to the different cabs, effects, speakers, guitars, ears, etc. But, I have never really thought of approaching it like a mixing console, mainly because it sounds very rich with the CM up. I was content for a while, and had given up on trying to incorporate serial based effects. The amp It is much more percussive with the power amp up though. Playing though it feels "opposite", for lack of a better description. With the CM up, I dig in when I want to be powerful and percussive. With the PA up, I feel like I have to lighten my playing/touch to not be powerful and percussive... So, it's mainly in my hands where I am experiencing the difference so far. But it's interesting because I feel like I have more on tap when I need it directly through the amp, instead of trying push it harder with a pedal. Kind of cool actually.

I am going to keep experimenting. I have bought/sold or returned almost every processor that anyone on rig-talk has recommended, and not once could I produce results that were acceptable to my ears or operate the gear without overloading it (Lexicon excluded). :doh: I wanted to accomplish a very simple (on paper) plan and run 6 modules through the head with a couple of stomps up front and a Reverb/delay through the parallel loop. When that overloaded an squealed terribly, I just felt like I was doing something wrong. Have any of you guys geeked out enough to actually test the levels (using VU meters) to see what is coming and going where?
 
Chris R":o10ehl6h said:
Have any of you guys geeked out enough to actually test the levels (using VU meters) to see what is coming and going where?
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LOL. This makes me feel like.....

"But, this one goes to eleven."

12690d1175651982-new-werks-turbo-nigel-tufnel.jpg


 
:lol: :LOL: :rock: LOL. Yeah, That description was warranted!!


Nigel Tufnel: [on what he would do if he couldn't be a rock star] Well, I suppose I could, uh, work in a shop of some kind, or... or do, uh, freelance, uh, selling of some sort of, uh, product. You know...
Marty DiBergi: A salesman?
Nigel Tufnel: A salesman, like maybe in a, uh, haberdasher, or maybe like a, uh, um... a chapeau shop or something. You know, like, "Would you... what size do you wear, sir?" And then you answer me.
Marty DiBergi: Uh... seven and a quarter.
Nigel Tufnel: "I think we have that." See, something like that I could do.
Marty DiBergi: Yeah... you think you'd be happy doing something like-...
Nigel Tufnel: "No; we're all out. Do you wear black?" See, that sort of thing I think I could probably... muster up.
Marty DiBergi: Do you think you'd be happy doing that?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, I don't know - wh-wh-... what're the hours?
 
I will try Bruce's suggestions, but I will say that I have had great results with setting channel 1 of each module to around 11-12:00. Channel 2 to 1 degree higher in each preamp. This allows me to use channel 1 is my rhythm volume, channel 2 is my solo volume. I adjust the gain structure and global master for for overall amount of distortion and stage volume. My solos are always louder and cut through the mix, whether a clean, mid gain or high gain solo, and my rhythms are fat and present.
 
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