Cranking the master = Bad tone.

[anomaly]

I mean, it's a given for SS amps...around noon'ish on the master they crap out, but i find the same true for tube amps in ALOT of cases, especially for metal tones.

Honestly, the only tube amps that sounds REALLY sound good cranked to 10 are the old Marshall plexi's, Bassman's... those type of lower gain amps. But, amps where the pre-amp is providing most of the tone i find they can't be pushed so hard.

For example, a Peavey 5150, or any Mark series Mesa is gonna sound like shit cranked up too high IMO. Just my experience. Am i alone in thinking this?

On nearly every high gain amp i've tried, around 3 - 6 on the master is where it sounds best to me, yet i hear people say "you gotta crank those tube amps to get the best tone".

 

[OneArmedScissor]

It depends, but with the average preamp-based amps, I'm inclined to agree. Even though you can turn down the preamp gain a whole lot on amps like that to try to make them operate more like "vintage" amps that work well turned way up, it's still typically a poor imitation.

I don't know why in the world people say you have to push the power tubes on many amps like that, as if it's the only way to make them sound "right." As you said, they're probably still only turning them from 3-6 or so, which isn't really "cranked." It's just loud.

Everything sounds better loud. That's the way our ears work. Would you rather listen to music softly or absolutely blast it, given the choice? Rest assured, it's not better loud because of the "warm power amp overdrive" from your car CD player or iPod.

 

[mrp5150]

I agree as well. I think most amps sound best at moderate volumes.

 

[soc_monki]

the reason high gain amps dont sound good cranked is because you already have a high amount of distortion in the preamp...when you add more from the power tubes all youre doing is compressing the signal and squashing it to the point that it all just sounds flat. ive had my 5150 up above 7 before...even had it to 10 once. its worthless because the EQ controls dont work very effectively at that volume because of all the compression.

however...moderate volumes are good because of the fact that the tone is better when you get the speakers working and moving air. you get a fuller sound. and the power tubes...even though they arent forced into distortion, still compress the signal a bit and offer a more pleasing tone.

at least thats the way i look at it. ive never really had to turn my 5150 above 4 or 5 for a gig...and thats been rare (outdoors with no micing). however i have heard a lot of SS amps turned up very loud that do sound good...just gotta make sure theres enough wattage there to do it.

 

[anomaly]

the reason high gain amps dont sound good cranked is because you already have a high amount of distortion in the preamp...when you add more from the power tubes all youre doing is compressing the signal and squashing it to the point that it all just sounds flat. ive had my 5150 up above 7 before...even had it to 10 once. its worthless because the EQ controls dont work very effectively at that volume because of all the compression.

however...moderate volumes are good because of the fact that the tone is better when you get the speakers working and moving air. you get a fuller sound. and the power tubes...even though they arent forced into distortion, still compress the signal a bit and offer a more pleasing tone.

at least thats the way i look at it. ive never really had to turn my 5150 above 4 or 5 for a gig...and thats been rare (outdoors with no micing). however i have heard a lot of SS amps turned up very loud that do sound good...just gotta make sure theres enough wattage there to do it.

Makes sense to me.

I kinda think pre-amp distortion just doesn't blend well with power tube distortion in alot of cases, especially if you're using alot of pre-amp gain.

With 100 watt + amps about 3 on the master is sufficient for gigging, and cutting through a mix IMO.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

I don't think it's necessarily lots of preamp distortion being the sole issue. Of course a lot of that, plus totally cranking the amp, will make a mess. However, lots of those amps just plain sound shitty cranked way up. I've tried it on a few of them with the gain really low or non-high gain channels. I'm not a high gain person, so an ass load of gain on a cranked amp isn't something I'd attempt to begin with, but it still doesn't work for me.

 

[soc_monki]

the reason high gain amps dont sound good cranked is because you already have a high amount of distortion in the preamp...when you add more from the power tubes all youre doing is compressing the signal and squashing it to the point that it all just sounds flat. ive had my 5150 up above 7 before...even had it to 10 once. its worthless because the EQ controls dont work very effectively at that volume because of all the compression.

however...moderate volumes are good because of the fact that the tone is better when you get the speakers working and moving air. you get a fuller sound. and the power tubes...even though they arent forced into distortion, still compress the signal a bit and offer a more pleasing tone.

at least thats the way i look at it. ive never really had to turn my 5150 above 4 or 5 for a gig...and thats been rare (outdoors with no micing). however i have heard a lot of SS amps turned up very loud that do sound good...just gotta make sure theres enough wattage there to do it.

Makes sense to me.

I kinda think pre-amp distortion just doesn't blend well with power tube distortion in alot of cases, especially if you're using alot of pre-amp gain.

With 100 watt + amps about 3 on the master is sufficient for gigging, and cutting through a mix IMO.

lots of preamp gain + lots of poweramp distortion = compressed and mushy mess to me. i dont run the gain that high anyways (around 3 or so on my 5150) and its usually more than enough. dont ever go above 4. whenever the volume goes up past 5 it usually gets kinda messy on the bottom end and articulation starts going down the tubes. maybe good for some styles of music but i prefer a tighter tone.

 

[Phishphood]

Depends on the amp. Some like mesas can get harsh at high values, but my legacy sounds best at 4-7 on the master which is really fucking loud. The preamp provides a decent amount of gain, but without driving the power tubes its fizzy and brittle sounding

 

[OneArmedScissor]

Yes, but what happens if you set it to 10? I don't think at 4, you're pushing the power tubes. I couldn't really guess for the rest of it, but that was exactly my point. People say you have to "push the power tubes," but they're just making the amp loud, not overdriving it. There's still like half the range of the control to go.

 

[Phishphood]

Yes, but what happens if you set it to 10? I don't think at 4, you're pushing the power tubes. I couldn't really guess for the rest of it, but that was exactly my point. People say you have to "push the power tubes," but they're just making the amp loud, not overdriving it. There's still like half the range of the control to go.

4 is just the minimum. I've never taken it up to ten, but I liked it at 7/8

 

[Random Hero]

Yep. I find most amps sound best at pretty moderate levels. I like my Mark IV on around 3-4. Not stupid loud, but loud. Of course, I very much enjoy it on 2 aswell...

 

[Shiny_Surface]

With high gain preamp designs, I noticed that you normally hit a sweet spot well before maximum volume.

But if you keep going past that you will hit max volume and it will still sound great, but then usually there is even more range to go on the knob and if you keep going past that it will just compress further.

The most tone loss I've experienced regarding this is with a Dual Rec. If you kept going past the maximum volume spot the tone would just fall apart.

Higher end amps tend to do this less in my experience, the Uberschall's I used to have maintained their tone throughout the whole volume range for instance.

 

[Shiny_Surface]

Yep. I find most amps sound best at pretty moderate levels. I like my Mark IV on around 3-4. Not stupid loud, but loud. Of course, I very much enjoy it on 2 aswell...

3 on the Mark IV is almost maximum volume, it doesn't get much louder after that at least on mine

I could jam with a drummer on 2 and be heard in a mix no problem.

I do have older tubes in it though.....

 

[Copperhead]

The 5150 is super compressed anyway, I've found mine sounds best at 4-5, then you are right, the the hissing mushy mess of all those electrons slowing down just abuses your ears.....
On the other hand, my Revolution doesn't start to get sweet until 4, I've had it up to 7-8 outdoors and it is really creamy and dreamy at that setting, but it IS REALLY FRICKIN' LOUD..... Normally I use a Hotplate and it's still too loud, next up I'm going to slave out, I'm looking for a power amp currently.

 

[anomaly]

Yep. I find most amps sound best at pretty moderate levels. I like my Mark IV on around 3-4. Not stupid loud, but loud. Of course, I very much enjoy it on 2 aswell...

3 on the Mark IV is almost maximum volume, it doesn't get much louder after that at least on mine

I could jam with a drummer on 2 and be heard in a mix no problem.

I do have older tubes in it though.....

Ya know, on most amps i've played you get about 80% of the total volume at the 3.5 - 4 mark on the master control. After the half way mark it's more compression/distortion than volume.

 

[Variable]

I mean, it's a given for SS amps...around noon'ish on the master they crap out, but i find the same true for tube amps in ALOT of cases, especially for metal tones.

Honestly, the only tube amps that sounds REALLY sound good cranked to 10 are the old Marshall plexi's, Bassman's... those type of lower gain amps. But, amps where the pre-amp is providing most of the tone i find they can't be pushed so hard.

For example, a Peavey 5150, or any Mark series Mesa is gonna sound like shit cranked up too high IMO. Just my experience. Am i alone in thinking this?

On nearly every high gain amp i've tried, around 3 - 6 on the master is where it sounds best to me, yet i hear people say "you gotta crank those tube amps to get the best tone".

I think by "crank", most people are saying that you have to at least turn a 50-100watt tube amp up to a loudness level that is going to piss off anyone else in your apartment complex. Since you typically get more power amp distortion with the volume maxed, you have to turn the preamp gain down, or you end up with flubby mush. At higher settings, a lot of tube amp master volumes begin to act as a second gain control.

Also, the higher the volume, the more the speakers in your cab will be inclined to distort. Depending on the speakers, this can sound good or bad (I'm inclined towards bad, unless we're talking about speakers designed to break up early, like the Greenback). In my experience, higher wattage speakers can sound like ass if they break up.

 

[SFW]

What you have to realise is that for most modern high gain amps, "5" is as loud as the ap is going to get. Anything pas 5 on the MV is just saturating the poweramp section. Which in turn causes poweramp distortion. And yes, the Legacy doesn't start to really sound good until you get the lead master up around 4.

 

[Greazygeo]

Yeah I cringe when I read guys biasing their amps at 75% (especially with with EL 34's)...thats gonna be ugly up loud, especially after things warm up abit.....normally I like the master up kinda high and ch vol lower....adjust the amp for the volume you are playing.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

Yes, but what happens if you set it to 10? I don't think at 4, you're pushing the power tubes. I couldn't really guess for the rest of it, but that was exactly my point. People say you have to "push the power tubes," but they're just making the amp loud, not overdriving it. There's still like half the range of the control to go.

4 is just the minimum. I've never taken it up to ten, but I liked it at 7/8

You're still missing the point, though. What everyone calls the "sweet spot" is just where the amp gets loud. I honestly think it has nothing at all to do with overdriving the power tubes, or maybe pretty much anything in the amp at all, with like 90% of these amps. Yours could be an exception. I neither know, nor care, but most of these amps are designed for high headroom to begin with. There's a lot more to it than just pushing the power tubes. As noted, pushing the speakers can make a key difference, and there are other components within the amp itself that overdrive as they are pushed harder and can change as much or more as the power tubes.

Even "vintage" amps sound way better when they first hit a loud volume, but aren't yet really overdriving anything. It's just the way our ears work. We like more volume until we can't stand it any more, and the frequency response changes with the volume. That's one reason, though not the only one, why an attenuator won't really get you an actual cranked sound at lower volumes. That's a conflict of interests.

The difference with "vintage" designs is that the amp's response can change DRASTICALLY as it is turned up BEYOND that, practically changing it into a different amp altogether. Modern amp designs don't really do that, even if the power section becomes overdriven, because they're designed to stay pretty "clean" (not really the right word, but whatever).