Dialing in Hagen, HELP

[GtarLover]

I have been avoiding writing this for a while now, partly because I must be retarded not to be able to dial in this awesome amp

OK, so I have been trying for a while, with not so much luck. I mean I get decent tones, but I need some help. I really want to love this amp as much as my Herbert (currently my #1) and my 20th XTC, is it possible that the Hagen just isn't for me?? I don't want to believe that.

I am using a Suhr Modern through Diezel FL 4X12's one with V30's and one with K100's.
What am I missing? I have heard such great clips from others, so I know I MUST be missing something.

Help and settings appreciated

 

[Ventura]

Question #1. What is the amp doing that you don't like?
Question #2. What are you looking for the amp to do?
Question #3. Are you playing throughout a range of volumes and styles (ie: standard, drop, etc)?
Question #4. Is it the "in the room feel" where you're finding a problem, or when it's mic'd?

Peace,
Mo

 

[GtarLover]

Thanks for the questions Uncle Mo.

#1 It's not doing anything "bad" per se. I think it sounds a bit bass heavy, especially through the V30's, but I can EQ that. Maybe a bit of it is just the difference in the voicing from what I have grown to LOVE about Herbert.

#2 I want to get that amazing Diezel tone out of both channel 2 and channel 3. I feel like channel 2 doesn't quite get there and 3 is better, but I guess I was hoping for something closer to the VH4 channel 3 tones. If I boost it with a TS808, it gets better...more tactile and more sustain, I like it more. I was just hoping for the amp to do it without a boost.

#3 I have only rehearsed with it once. Then I was using E flat tuning for most things and drop D in E flat for some others. Boosting the volume with Master 2 for leads. I run an Axe FX Ultra in the loop of my Herbert for effects, but as I said I haven't had the Hagen in many band rehearsals. Does it need to be turned up a lot more?

#4 I actually like the 3D feel of the amp with the Diezel FL 4X12's. Haven't even tried it mic'd.

What cabs and gear are you using Mo? I know you have a 20th as well, I have the 6L6 version. I really like the way it responds. I totally love Herbert as well. Is the Hagen just too different?

Thanks for your help brother.

 

[Mizati20]

Hagen doesn't hold a candle to the other Diezel heads

 

[GtarLover]

Hagen doesn't hold a candle to the other Diezel heads

Say it isn't so!!! I keep thinking it's me, hat I am missing something.
What was your experience?

 

[Mizati20]

Hagen doesn't hold a candle to the other Diezel heads

Say it isn't so!!! I keep thinking it's me, hat I am missing something.
What was your experience?

Only going to answer this because you asked as I wasn't going to come in here just speaking negatively about Peter's creation... I will start by saying there are others that LOVE their Hagen (well, a couple)... but from what I have seen with my own eyes here on the boards most people offed theirs... I will also say the VH-4 is my all-time favorite amp on the ENTIRE planet... and the Herbert is jaw dropping as well...

....with that out of the way, I hated the Hagen, it didn't have that signature Diezel tone IMO... I couldn't get rid of it fast enough... it was mushy and TOO hairy... just had a fizz that I didn't like, and there wasn't a tone in it that I couldn't get from other amps at much less of the price of the Hagen... that's about all I will say...

 

[GtarLover]

Hagen doesn't hold a candle to the other Diezel heads

Say it isn't so!!! I keep thinking it's me, hat I am missing something.
What was your experience?

Only going to answer this because you asked as I wasn't going to come in here just speaking negatively about Peter's creation... I will start by saying there are others that LOVE their Hagen (well, a couple)... but from what I have seen with my own eyes here on the boards most people offed theirs... I will also say the VH-4 is my all-time favorite amp on the ENTIRE planet... and the Herbert is jaw dropping as well...

....with that out of the way, I hated the Hagen, it didn't have that signature Diezel tone IMO... I couldn't get rid of it fast enough... it was mushy and TOO hairy... just had a fizz that I didn't like, and there wasn't a tone in it that I couldn't get from other amps at much less of the price of the Hagen... that's about all I will say...

I appreciate the straight talk. I asked and I am glad to hear the honest truth, no problem hearing opinions, not anything against Peter.
I absolutely LOVE my Herbert and will have it 'till the end of days.
It's just that I ordered the Hagen before they came out, was so excited when I got it and yet I have been feeling like something is wrong with me because I haven't been able to get "the sweet tones" from the amp.
As you say, not feeling anything totally different or signature in the amp. At least not like the Herbert or the VH4 (which I currently don't have).
Had a VH4S and an Einstein, but let them go. Maybe it's time to swap out the Hagen for a VH4 or a spare Herbert, I don't know...

Let's hear from some of those that are LOVING their Hagen's

 

[GtarLover]

Hey Reza,

Thanks for the video. Great sounds and it helps to hear both the strat and the SG.

Glad you are getting the tones you want. How does the Hagen stack up against the VH4? What do you feel like are the main differences?

Just trying to get all perspectives

 

[GtarLover]

Thanks Reza, very helpful.

We'll see at happens.

 

[K-mark5]

GtarLover

a friend of mine had a diezel hagen, and I can definitely understand your concerns. Although my friend loved the way it sounded, I did not.
Everytime I heard his band play live onstage I just could not hear his guitar properly in the mix, couldn't tell if it is bass or guitar what i am hearing. I asked him about how much bass he's running and he said - almost no bass
The main reason I guess was that the hagen pulls so much bass! Even with bass on 2 it's still too bass heavy, on the other hand I heard the VH4 and it ripped. I heard and played a herbert, I had the same issue with it as with the hagen. With my 7string the low B was just farting out and it was all too muddy.

 

[Ventura]

Yo Cats!!

First up, "tightening" the amp up with a boost is more or less counterintuitive to what the amp is. The Hagen - IMHO - is a looser amp than the other top dogs in the Diezel lineage. It's slippery. I find I had to change my playing style to get it to respond like the others. That said, it works wonders for me - and I know this is a "high gain head", but man, the clean channel is beautiful.

Secondly, yes, I found this amp really came alive - became "all things Diezel" - when the volume got cracked open. Everything falls into place when she's played with some juice behind it. Bass holds tight, this "fizz" lessens (more on that in a sec), and it thunders. I've also found that I use way less gain on 2 and 3 to get me where I'm going. I pull back the presence, and use the bass and depth a bit more to get it to VH4 territory. BUT!! If you want it sound like a VH4, well, get a VH4. It's a totally different amp.

Speaking about the fizz. There is indeed a resistor swap as per Reza's recommendation - however - mind the version of the circuit board in the amp's chassis. Yes, there are some variations to the Hagen, and knowing which version of circuit board you have will benefit you when making component changes. You don't wanna f*ck this amp up!!

It's hard to compare anything to the VH4 (and this is no disrespect for the Herbert crew Folks, just sayin'...). The VH4 is compressed, it is THE signature Diezel tone, it is THE amp that had most people end heir tone pursuits with Ch.3 alone. It's extremely touch sensitive, it's compressed, it's tight, it's loud, it's hyper responsive, and it's very very 3D through the right cab. But alas, it is compressed [in a good way, specific to Ch.3] and if it's THAT that you're looking for, you won't find it in the Hagen. Hagen is a different beast.

I find mine took a little more tweaking to get it to where I thought it ought to go. But it's there. And ya, I did more EQing by ear than eye. For the record, I prefer my Diezels through a 4x12 FL with G12K100 speakers. I've had a V30 loaded 4x12 and I didn't like it as much - too grating. I find the K100s to be more linear and representative of the amp's frequency response and playing. I've always preferred the K100s over a V30 loaded box with Diezels.

Hope this helps.

Uncle Mo

 

[Tone Monster]

The cold hard truth is that the VH4 needs Hagen's channels 1,2, and 4. OR the Hagen needs Channel 3 from the VH4. THAT AMP WOULD BE TRULY AMAZING. The Hagen can't quite pull off (its close) channel 3 of the VH4, but the other channels are superior IMO. Combine the two amps into one!!!!!! PLEASE??!!??

I'd be first in line

 

[Mizati20]

The cold hard truth is that the VH4 needs Hagen's channels 1,2, and 4. OR the Hagen needs Channel 3 from the VH4. THAT AMP WOULD BE TRULY AMAZING. The Hagen can't quite pull off (its close) channel 3 of the VH4, but the other channels are superior IMO. Combine the two amps into one!!!!!! PLEASE??!!??

I'd be first in line

Let make a new Diezel called the VH-Hagert...

Channel 1 - Herbert's Clean (with a master volume)
Channel 2 - VH-4's Channel 3
Channel 3 - Hagen's Channel 4

Mid Cut functionality with second master volume and all the MIDI switching we love...

....I swear to god I would never purchase another amp...

 

[GtarLover]

Yo Cats!!

I find mine took a little more tweaking to get it to where I thought it ought to go. But it's there. And ya, I did more EQing by ear than eye. For the record, I prefer my Diezels through a 4x12 FL with G12K100 speakers. I've had a V30 loaded 4x12 and I didn't like it as much - too grating. I find the K100s to be more linear and representative of the amp's frequency response and playing. I've always preferred the K100s over a V30 loaded box with Diezels.

Hope this helps.

Uncle Mo

Hey Mo,

This is what I have been looking for in terms of clarity between the amps. I just couldn't articulate it. So thanks for your help and shedding some light on this for me. I agree with you here.

I tend to notice the cabs differences too. That's why I have been using Herbert through 2 Diezel FL 4X12's with the top one loaded with K100's and the bottom one loaded with V30's. It's a good mix for me. I hear the K100's more because they are on top, while the V30 cab usually gets mic'd at shows. My XTC 20th seems to enjoy the V30's a bit more than the K100's though. Probably need to plug that one into the full stack as well and listen to the tones. The 20th sounds pretty awesome through my older Marshall cabs too. Could just be time for a head/cab shoot-out in my studio and then pair down what isn't matching.

Also, I think the volume issue is a big one for the Hagen, as you mentioned. Maybe it's time to bring it to rehearsal again and fire it up at a decent volume with the band.

To be honest, from the moment I plugged into my Herbert I was blown away. I was a Diezel convert. Even though I have owned other Diezel heads, Herbert still is the "ONE" for me right now. Might be time to get myself a VH4 and see what happens. Just a good bit of cash to be holding 3 Diezel heads

Papa has made it so hard to own just one...might be some other gear for sale pretty soon here, need to finance my Diezel fetish

 

[Ventura]

Papa has made it so hard to own just one...might be some other gear for sale pretty soon here, need to finance my Diezel fetish

Papa's not only a tremendous amp builder, he's also a smart businessman.

As per the cabs and the like, I'll agree with you here and say that the 20thX is a killer amp through a V30 loaded cab. Hands down, baby, I love my 20thA. But we're going to have to remove that amp from this context as the Hagen and the 20thA couldn't be more different.

With the Hagen, you've got 2 cabs it sounds like. First up, try it with the K100 loaded 4x12. At rehearsal, work channels 2 and 3 with the preamp EQ first. Have Presence and Depth barely cracked open - maybe 8:30/9:00 on the dials. Get your MASTER up to 3 or 4 o'clock, and work the channel volume up to taste. GAIN!! Start your gain on both channels at 9 o'clock. Pull back the treble to 9 o'clock, have the mids between noon and 3 o'clock (both channels), and your bass at noon (neutral). How does this sound? Less hairy? Less fizzy? More full on and hard hitting?? I bet it does!!

After this routine, start working on the presence. It's highly sensitive and totally changes the dynamic of the amp. Use it sparingly.

After this, start working the depth. This is the control that will allow you to either choose to use a boost to "tighten things up", or to set it straight off the bat without needing a boost. It'll hold its own, but the cab makes all the difference here once the depth starts thumping. I didn't like how the V30s took the depth on the Hagen. I do like how the K100s take it.

Key though to really getting a ballistic in-yer-face thumping hardcore gnawing chainsaw of an amp tone is keep the master high, be conservative with the gain(!!!), and use the channel volume to taste. Before delving into the circuit change, I'll shed some light on what I'm doing with respect to different preamp glass to change it up a bit as well. This'll be a while though. I know Peter likes us to "abide" by his glass recommendations, but the Hagen is the first amp out of the Diezel hizzy that does need some personalization if I do say so myself. It's not a bad thing, just something that needs to be understood.

Hope this helps.
Mo

 

[GtarLover]

You are speaking my language Uncle Mo. These are excellent tips for ANY Hagen user.

I will gve it a go this evening and see where I land. Thanks brother

 

[base341]

Papa has made it so hard to own just one...might be some other gear for sale pretty soon here, need to finance my Diezel fetish

Papa's not only a tremendous amp builder, he's also a smart businessman.

As per the cabs and the like, I'll agree with you here and say that the 20thX is a killer amp through a V30 loaded cab. Hands down, baby, I love my 20thA. But we're going to have to remove that amp from this context as the Hagen and the 20thA couldn't be more different.

With the Hagen, you've got 2 cabs it sounds like. First up, try it with the K100 loaded 4x12. At rehearsal, work channels 2 and 3 with the preamp EQ first. Have Presence and Depth barely cracked open - maybe 8:30/9:00 on the dials. Get your MASTER up to 3 or 4 o'clock, and work the channel volume up to taste. GAIN!! Start your gain on both channels at 9 o'clock. Pull back the treble to 9 o'clock, have the mids between noon and 3 o'clock (both channels), and your bass at noon (neutral). How does this sound? Less hairy? Less fizzy? More full on and hard hitting?? I bet it does!!

After this routine, start working on the presence. It's highly sensitive and totally changes the dynamic of the amp. Use it sparingly.

After this, start working the depth. This is the control that will allow you to either choose to use a boost to "tighten things up", or to set it straight off the bat without needing a boost. It'll hold its own, but the cab makes all the difference here once the depth starts thumping. I didn't like how the V30s took the depth on the Hagen. I do like how the K100s take it.

Key though to really getting a ballistic in-yer-face thumping hardcore gnawing chainsaw of an amp tone is keep the master high, be conservative with the gain(!!!), and use the channel volume to taste. Before delving into the circuit change, I'll shed some light on what I'm doing with respect to different preamp glass to change it up a bit as well. This'll be a while though. I know Peter likes us to "abide" by his glass recommendations, but the Hagen is the first amp out of the Diezel hizzy that does need some personalization if I do say so myself. It's not a bad thing, just something that needs to be understood.

Hope this helps.
Mo

 

[jimistheman]

I have a Hagen, and I've found that some of the concerns or complaints about the amp are resolved with increase in volume--particularly fizziness. Mo's suggestions are very good. Don't be afraid to crank it! I have a rivera that's very similar--completely different animals at bedroom vs. gig volumes. Of course, some of that is to be expected with tube amps. Hope this helps somewhat.

Jim

 

[Peter Diezel]

I have been avoiding writing this for a while now, partly because I must be retarded not to be able to dial in this awesome amp

OK, so I have been trying for a while, with not so much luck. I mean I get decent tones, but I need some help. I really want to love this amp as much as my Herbert (currently my #1) and my 20th XTC, is it possible that the Hagen just isn't for me?? I don't want to believe that.

I am using a Suhr Modern through Diezel FL 4X12's one with V30's and one with K100's.
What am I missing? I have heard such great clips from others, so I know I MUST be missing something.

Help and settings appreciated

Why don´t send me an email ?

Best,
Peter

 

[GtarLover]

Thanks Peter...I will do that.

Just wanted to send out an update after using the Hagen at rehearsal tonight. I used Uncle Mo's suggestions and cranked up Master Volume 1 to about 12 O'Clock, then adjusted channel volumes from there (I had it up to 3 O'clock at first as Mo suggested, but there was little room for lead boost from Master 2 then, so I backed it off a bit).

Anyway, IT WAS AWESOME!!! Really a whole different animal with the Master Volume pushing harder and then the channel volumes doing the incremental stuff. I had the Master Volume 2 dimed to get a lead boost, but that's OK. It was even quieter as well. I mean I could hear an audible difference in the background hiss, it was less with the Master up higher.

Kept the deep control around 9 O'clock and played with the presence a bit. Will take a couple more "higher volume" experiences to get it perfect, but THIS is what I was missing. I love the Hagen's sound and pushing two Diezel 4X12's (I couldn't just use one at a time, sorry Mo), oh my

I have played around with other heads sometimes and the other guitar player in the band has always been clearly partial to Herbert, not that I don't blame him as I thoroughly worship Herbert. However, he commented that the Hagen was awesome and sounded great tonight. That's a big deal, because as I said, he is always like "that's a cool head, but you are using Herbert for the gig, right?"

It's like I have a whole new amp. SWEET

Anyway, this has been a huge learning experience and I am glad I finally asked about all this...turns out is was user error
Thanks again guys, I appreciate all the feedback and the ideas.

And thanks for responding Peter, I will shoot you an email tomorrow.