Dimarzio suing small Pickup maker!

[WolfeMacleod]

Sounds like cruddy news for dimarzio. I mean, just keep it the way it is and dont get money hungry

Here's something pretty cruddy....

Larry apprenticed under Bill Lawrence. Late 60's or very early 70's.

There no way he could not have known that Bill made exposed-coil humbuckers. In cream. in the 1960's.

See that statement up there? That would be a blatant lie.

Ohhh yea.... they claim first use in commerce in 1974.
903.02 Date of First Use in Commerce
In a trademark or service mark application, the date of first use in commerce is the date when the goods were first sold or transported, or the services were first rendered, under the mark in a type of commerce that may be lawfully regulated by the U.S. Congress, if such use is bona fide and in the ordinary course of trade. See 15 U.S.C. §1127. See TMEP §901.01 for definitions of “commerce” and “use in commerce,” and TMEP §901.03 regarding types of commerce

I think "regulated by congress" etc could mean.. a licensed, taxed company perhaps? A company who exists in the eyes of the government?

Well...

 

[MrSticky]

Interested in the outcome, lawsuits take a ton of dough.

 

[Orionsbelt456]

Kinda like suing over a big mac with no lettuce lol. Silly to sue over something like that.

 

[Orionsbelt456]

I wonder what the verdict will be

 

[thunda]

It's sorta like when Harley Davidson tried to trademark the thunkety thunkety sound of their V Twin engines several years ago. The issue was that Honda had developed a V Twin Shadow model that sounded just like a Harley, especially with straight exhaust pipes. After spending many thousands of dollars, they finally gave up around 1998. DiMarzio should do the same. It's a color for goodness sake. I have DiMarzio and Bill n Becky pickups of various colors, Mighty Mite too. They all sound great regardless of color.

If they are really concerned about product identification, maybe they should label the bobbins like Seymour does...

 

[charvelstrat81]

Everytime i read about DMZ and the PAF trademark and the double cream BS i see SETH LOVER turn over in his grave!
I like and use a few DMZ's( custom wound set in the EBMM EVH/axis or the PAF pro) but their business practice is absolutely not cool at all!
You want cool guys that will build you what you want talk to duncan or the smaller winders like Mick @ manilus or James @ rewind.
Ps, IF dimarzio is so insecure about others using a color scheme(double cream or vintage white) what does that say about their belief in their product???
I mean why be so threatened over a color???

 

[Shawn Lutz]

Trademark violations are not just for the big companies you know. The distinct color is trademarked so no problem with them putting C&D's to other shops in violation regardless if mom and pop winders or not.

 

[LP Freak]

What exactly constitutes "cream" in terms of color? Who is to say what is double cream and what is double off white or double aged white or double parchment or double vanilla?

I have always had a negative view of DiMarzio because of this lame trademark of something Gibson did. Why didn't they trademark zebra and double black pickups at the same time?

Exactly. They'd really have the corner on the market then.

 

[Racerxrated]

Seems like Larry has an axe to grind with anyone who DARES produce a double cream pickup...which he stole from Gibson. Pathetic really.

 

[bob123]

Keep in mind Dimarzio isn't super huge themselves. Not compared to Seymour Duncan anyway.

As "crappy" as it may appear; they really do need to protect their identities. I was under the impression gibson pickups were WHITE and merely faded to that lovely cream color over time, no?

They aren't trademarking a "color". They are trademarking standard 6 pole double bobbin humbuckers in "double-cream" as a dimarzio identity. To my understanding thats pretty fair. Its not like they can go sue a custom shop for painting a car "double cream" or anything like that. They can stop pickup makers from making double bobbin 6 pole double cream humbuckers. A lot of you guys are failing to see this distinction.

Ways around it? PLENTY. Call them off white, call them eggshell, call them whatever you want, just not double cream, and make sure the shade is differentiable from what dimarzio uses, and they have no legal recourse or standing in a court. Google "reasonable standards" to see how you can make a clear distinction.

Plenty of small makers make ends meet off riding on the backs of giants. How many "custom shop" guitars sell blatant rip offs of major guitars? Just because they're small, does not mean their practices are ethical, legal, or morally acceptable. Just because a small maker has more sympathy does not mean they are doing the "right thing". Integrity. Lets pass some of that around.

 

[Racerxrated]

Keep in mind Dimarzio isn't super huge themselves. Not compared to Seymour Duncan anyway.

As "crappy" as it may appear; they really do need to protect their identities. I was under the impression gibson pickups were WHITE and merely faded to that lovely cream color over time, no?

They aren't trademarking a "color". They are trademarking standard 6 pole double bobbin humbuckers in "double-cream" as a dimarzio identity. To my understanding thats pretty fair. Its not like they can go sue a custom shop for painting a car "double cream" or anything like that. They can stop pickup makers from making double bobbin 6 pole double cream humbuckers. A lot of you guys are failing to see this distinction.

Ways around it? PLENTY. Call them off white, call them eggshell, call them whatever you want, just not double cream, and make sure the shade is differentiable from what dimarzio uses, and they have no legal recourse or standing in a court. Google "reasonable standards" to see how you can make a clear distinction.

Plenty of small makers make ends meet off riding on the backs of giants. How many "custom shop" guitars sell blatant rip offs of major guitars? Just because they're small, does not mean their practices are ethical, legal, or morally acceptable. Just because a small maker has more sympathy does not mean they are doing the "right thing". Integrity. Lets pass some of that around.

Seems to me that Wolfe has already shown other examples of cream pickups that were being produced and used on Ibanez guitars, and a Bill Lawrence from '65 that is clearly cream-all these happened waay before DiMarzio was founded. So it's not just Gibson that previously used that color. Listen, if someone wants a DiMarzio they'll buy one..no one is gonna hold off on buying a Duncan just because it's not cream. DiMarzio isn't going to gain additional sales based on the color of a pickup. It's the tone that's important. This seems to most on this forum to be an action that is completely unnecessary and just makes DiMarzio look like an ass.

 

[bob123]

Seems to me that Wolfe has already shown other examples of cream pickups that were being produced and used on Ibanez guitars, and a Bill Lawrence from '65 that is clearly cream-all these happened waay before DiMarzio was founded. So it's not just Gibson that previously used that color. Listen, if someone wants a DiMarzio they'll buy one..no one is gonna hold off on buying a Duncan just because it's not cream. DiMarzio isn't going to gain additional sales based on the color of a pickup. It's the tone that's important. This seems to most on this forum to be an action that is completely unnecessary and just makes DiMarzio look like an ass.

That really doesn't matter dude.

Its identity. Protecting their LEGAL RIGHTS doesn't make them look like an ass. If that was the case, then EBMM would have gone out of business a LONG fucking time ago. Dimarzio arent a group of patent trolls, they've held that trademark for 40 years. Just because "someone else did it" and got away with it, doesn't mean its acceptable, nor should they abandon their rights based on that merit alone.

Also, pretty damn sure maxon had license agreements with dimarzio back in the day (the ibanez's). The mighty mite ad is clearly speculative because its black and white, and an off brand proprietary single use pickup isn't something you're allowed to sue over, unless you have monetary gain from it. Gibson PAF's had white pickups, they were faded to cream, not originally that way.

You don't have to like it, thats really not for you to decide though. I don't see dimarzio losing sales over this...

 

[Racerxrated]

Seems to me that Wolfe has already shown other examples of cream pickups that were being produced and used on Ibanez guitars, and a Bill Lawrence from '65 that is clearly cream-all these happened waay before DiMarzio was founded. So it's not just Gibson that previously used that color. Listen, if someone wants a DiMarzio they'll buy one..no one is gonna hold off on buying a Duncan just because it's not cream. DiMarzio isn't going to gain additional sales based on the color of a pickup. It's the tone that's important. This seems to most on this forum to be an action that is completely unnecessary and just makes DiMarzio look like an ass.

That really doesn't matter dude.

Its identity. Protecting their LEGAL RIGHTS doesn't make them look like an ass. If that was the case, then EBMM would have gone out of business a LONG fucking time ago. Dimarzio arent a group of patent trolls, they've held that trademark for 40 years. Just because "someone else did it" and got away with it, doesn't mean its acceptable, nor should they abandon their rights based on that merit alone.

Also, pretty damn sure maxon had license agreements with dimarzio back in the day (the ibanez's). The mighty mite ad is clearly speculative because its black and white, and an off brand proprietary single use pickup isn't something you're allowed to sue over, unless you have monetary gain from it. Gibson PAF's had white pickups, they were faded to cream, not originally that way.

You don't have to like it, thats really not for you to decide though. I don't see dimarzio losing sales over this...

As stated above, dude, Bill Lawrence made a cream colored pickup in 1965. WAAY before DiMarzio even began his company. And funny...DiMarzio worked for BL....coincedence? Hmmm...regardless, Wolfe has made the case that a color can't be protected unless it is the IDENDITY of the company. They make other color options. Their identity is not defined by the cream pickup. DiMarzio should lose and I for one hope they do.

 

[WolfeMacleod]

Ibanez catalogues 1973

 

[WolfeMacleod]

......Also, pretty damn sure maxon had license agreements with dimarzio back in the day (the ibanez's). The mighty mite ad is clearly speculative because its black and white, and an off brand proprietary single use pickup isn't something you're allowed to sue over, unless you have monetary gain from it. Gibson PAF's had white pickups, they were faded to cream, not originally that way.

You don't have to like it, thats really not for you to decide though. I don't see dimarzio losing sales over this...

Hey, Bob. Bullshit.
The Mighty Mite ad clearly states that they were available in cream. So there is no speculation about it. It's CLEARLY states cream.
As for Maxon, they weren't licensed by Dimarzio. Speak with some Maxon historians. I have. I've also spoken at length with Randy Zacuto, original founder of Mighty Mite. We're quickly becoming best friends.

I sure wouldn't have called Mighty Mite an "Off brand" back them. They were a pretty big major player, and one of the first in the aftermarket pickup biz, but some thing happened that put and end to them.

And... as for PAFs having white bobbins, that's also bullshit. They were, and always were, cream. They didn't "fade" or age to cream at all. Speak to some people at Heritage about that if you doubt. The guy I spoke to had been there for 57 years. Does it makes sense to shoot the mounting rings and PAF bobbins in different colors? Nooo....
Others who will verify that they were always cream and haven't "faded" would be George Gruhn, Kent Armstrong, and Seymour.