Do you know your Fenders?

[EchelonEngineering]

I am also no Fender expert but rather a huge fan. I found myself in the same prediciment about 2 years ago. I am a head and cab guy. Not really into the combos (except the 4x10 59 bassman). The best Fender head to me is my blackface 1967 Fender Dual Showman. Basically a twin circuit with no reverb. I had the 1st channel modded so it breaks up ever so nicely. totally nuts when dimed but you roll the volume back on the guitar, and that "pushed" sound is present depending on the pick attack. Awesome feature to be able to have. and the 2nd channel is clear, and crisp, and with the vibrato ever so slightly engaged it sounds so heavenly. Not to mention, it takes pedals like none other. I have never heard a pedal sound bad through that amp. Its got more than enough power to thump a 4x12 with no problem. The Blonde/Brown era you were mentioning earlier is cool cause it has a presence control. The Blackface era has the bright switch. IMO I prefer the bright switch. Also the tube biasing is different between the two. In case you didn't know (which i'm sure you do) the Fender corp changed hands in 1968 and a few of the silverface amps (with the silver drip edge around the speaker grill cloth) actually used the remaining blackface parts they had stock so essentially that's a blackface circuit that looks like silverface and is significantly cheaper in price. I found my Fender head in functional condition but in need of work. So I got a sweet deal on the amp. All in all after it was said and done, I had about $600 in the head between purchase and repair. Totally worth every penny. I'll never sell that amp. You can visit my website (http://www.eepedals.com) and check the videos section for a sound demo of the Showman (its in the shootout and sound demo 3). Hope this helps you in your quest for that sweet, vintage Fender tone.

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

A BF dual showman is a very cool amp, not surprised you love it. Just thought I would mention a few things. Fender was bought out by CBS in 1965. They changed to Silverface in late '67, early '68. Drip edge Silverface amps are from late '67 to sometime in '69, love the drip edge

As far as Brown versus BF or SF. I really like both. My Brown Super has a mod for a bias pot (very common mod for Brown/blonde Fenders). I prefer the presence control myself to the bright cap. I find that with bright caps they are okay for clean, but are not good when running gain pedals through the amp. On my Bandmaster reverb, I leave the bright cap off most of the time.

Sorry for the misinformation...Like I said, just a fan, no expert

That bias pot mod is a great mod. I have run across a few however most of the folks we deal with don't want to perform that mod to an original amp. Allegedly it brings down the value...however to me, if its a player then make it the best player out there. Those amps aren't ment to sit in a museum; rather to be played and to be enjoyed by all. The is no other amp that sounds like a Fender. Fenders and Marshalls baby!

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

 

[EchelonEngineering]

so I should avoid any silverface that's older than '68? is there really a big tonal difference to the BF and Blondes?

In my experience, Fender fans tend to stay away from the silverface amps that are older than early '68. However, I have also seen silverface amps converted to blackface specs for quite a bit less money then buying a mint blonde/brown or blackface original. A gentleman we know locally has a 72 silverface twin that he had converted to blackface specs. All new trannys and wiring, new components. It sounds amazing.

IMO, I prefer the blackface. One is not better than another, its just preference. I like the crispness and crack that my blackface has.

We are all on a quest for tone. The only one who can judge if you like something is you. We can suggest, but only you know what your ear likes. I suggest you play both and pick the one that sounds better to your ear.

Let me know if I can do anything for you once you get that Fender (amp mods..etc...)

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

 

[blackba]

so I should avoid any silverface that's older than '68? is there really a big tonal difference to the BF and Blondes?

The general rule on Silverfaces is '72 or newer. It really depends on the model though, amps like a Champ didn't change much from BF through SF. I just like the look of the drip edge Silverfaces from '67-'69.

As far as BF versus Blonde. I can compare my '67 Bassman, '69 Bandmaster reverb, and '60 Fender Brown Super (which should be close to a Blonde sound with a tube rectifier).

The Brown Super has a meaty sound, good hair when you crank it. It has more mids than the Bassman or BMR. The normal channel on the Brown Super is pretty thick and meaty. The vibrato channel on the Super is not as thick and more BF sounding. I have seen many posts on people regretting selling a Brown or Blonde Era Fender and I love mine, hence why I am pushing one from that era.
My BMR, which has been blackfaced, by comparison has the typical Scouped mids, sounds more polite, and takes drive pedals just a bit better than the Brown Super.
The '67 Bassman had a thicker tone than the BMR, more bottom end authority and sounded meaner than the BMR. It also took pedals really well.

I hope that helps, its hard to describe amps. As I said before I like both the BF and Brown/Blonde sound, I am just advising you to branch out since you have a BF Princeton Reverb Reissue. Check out this thread too, it may help: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=825121

 

[blackba]

Sorry for the misinformation...Like I said, just a fan, no expert

That bias pot mod is a great mod. I have run across a few however most of the folks we deal with don't want to perform that mod to an original amp. Allegedly it brings down the value...however to me, if its a player then make it the best player out there. Those amps aren't ment to sit in a museum; rather to be played and to be enjoyed by all. The is no other amp that sounds like a Fender. Fenders and Marshalls baby!

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

You and I are in the same camp on amps. I am a player not a collector, so I like adding the bias pot on a Brown/Blonde amp. The Brown Super I have was a players amp anyway, someone had cut it down to a head and painted it black. The guy I bought it from got the black paint off and sold it as a Brown Super head. I then got a repro combo Brown Super cab, so now I can have the amp as a head or 210 combo (great option to have).

Fenders and Marshalls do rock, but I also love Vox amps. My Vox Ac50 is an awesome amp, actually with a 12AU7 in the preamp it sounds more like a Vox, with a 12AX7, it starts to have the growl of a vintage Marshall.

 

[JerryP]

If you want cleans GET the silverface. They have a cleaner clean and can be had for less money. The higher power, the more headroom so the Showman is a good choice. The Bassman 135 is nice too. Most of the Fender amps are based on the same core circuit with the main differences being power output, speaker configuration, and effects (reverb/vibrato). The Bassmans do have a different bass channel.
Jerry

 

[grooveHT]

I've got a sort of alternative. I know you're asking for Fenders, but have you thought about Riveras? Fantastic clean channel on par with Fenders, accutronics reverb on-board, and best for your situation, they produce heads as well as combos. Not sure if you have an open-back cab as I think most Fender combos are open-backed. Paul Rivera Sr. worked for Fender in the 80's, he's got a good handle on clean channels! As a bonus you get a distortion channel too. Also I believe the Venus amps are Class A and go towards Vox-y sounds, if you're interested in that.

 

[EchelonEngineering]

Sorry for the misinformation...Like I said, just a fan, no expert

That bias pot mod is a great mod. I have run across a few however most of the folks we deal with don't want to perform that mod to an original amp. Allegedly it brings down the value...however to me, if its a player then make it the best player out there. Those amps aren't ment to sit in a museum; rather to be played and to be enjoyed by all. The is no other amp that sounds like a Fender. Fenders and Marshalls baby!

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

You and I are in the same camp on amps. I am a player not a collector, so I like adding the bias pot on a Brown/Blonde amp. The Brown Super I have was a players amp anyway, someone had cut it down to a head and painted it black. The guy I bought it from got the black paint off and sold it as a Brown Super head. I then got a repro combo Brown Super cab, so now I can have the amp as a head or 210 combo (great option to have).

Fenders and Marshalls do rock, but I also love Vox amps. My Vox Ac50 is an awesome amp, actually with a 12AU7 in the preamp it sounds more like a Vox, with a 12AX7, it starts to have the growl of a vintage Marshall.

Vox has that nice jangle to it. Esp the top boost model. I like em!

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

 

[EchelonEngineering]

I've got a sort of alternative. I know you're asking for Fenders, but have you thought about Riveras? Fantastic clean channel on par with Fenders, accutronics reverb on-board, and best for your situation, they produce heads as well as combos. Not sure if you have an open-back cab as I think most Fender combos are open-backed. Paul Rivera Sr. worked for Fender in the 80's, he's got a good handle on clean channels! As a bonus you get a distortion channel too. Also I believe the Venus amps are Class A and go towards Vox-y sounds, if you're interested in that.

YES! Paul Rivera is a great builder. I had a Knucklehead 100 - one of the first gen runs and man...what a great sounding amp! Still I contest there is something about a vintage Fender amp....

Paul
Echelon Engineering
www.eepedals.com

 

[grooveHT]

Right on Paul...my first amp was a Jake combo, and man that thing killed. Unfortunately I didn't know what I had at the time...was trying to play a 50 watt amp in barracks though, so you know how well that went

 

[EchelonEngineering]

Right on Paul...my first amp was a Jake combo, and man that thing killed. Unfortunately I didn't know what I had at the time...was trying to play a 50 watt amp in barracks though, so you know how well that went

I hear ya...I too decided to go a different route than the Rivera and never had the cheese to buy another one....maybe one day though I will find that Kuncklehead 100 again. Cool amps definately.

Paul
Echelon Engineering
www.eepedals.com

 

[grooveHT]

Right on Paul...my first amp was a Jake combo, and man that thing killed. Unfortunately I didn't know what I had at the time...was trying to play a 50 watt amp in barracks though, so you know how well that went

I hear ya...I too decided to go a different route than the Rivera and never had the cheese to buy another one....maybe one day though I will find that Kuncklehead 100 again. Cool amps definately.

Paul
Echelon Engineering
http://www.eepedals.com

I was young and dumb for letting it go! Anyway, back on thread for me, I like their cleans, and usually they go for cheap used, so its worth a shot Joe!

 

[Joeytpg]

thank you for all the schooling hehehe

I dunno man, but I just want a vintage Fender..... like I said, If you want "fendery" cleans GET A FENDER!. I love my Princeton but it lacks a bit of bottom end which is ok for clubs and recording, but I want some more of that in a bigger more powerful package.

 

[garlad1]

"so I should avoid any silverface that's older than '68?"

No. I understand that a lot of really smart and knowledgeable people dislike the silverfaces. And to them, I say 'Pffft'....I have proof !

1972 fender quad reverb w/master volume (no push pull), all stock...one of the most beautiful clean sounds I have ever heard. It will not distort, About 100lbs, and moves air like nobody's business. Takes pedals, esp. the carbon copy and/or TS or rat (OCD). A wee-bit o' reverb, and it's tonal heaven. I dunno...maybe it's the 40-odd years of 'burn in' ?

I had a bunch of friends come over and check it out just to make sure I wasn't crazy like the internet says. Truth is, nobody knows everything or has played every amp, and there are absolutely amazing sounding SF's out there.

 

[ratter]

Blackface tremolux head.

 

[chunktone]

I have heard some great sounding silverface Fenders. I would look at Bassman heads, black or silver face. For newer Fender heads, the Tonemaster is really nice. No reverb though.

 

[glip22]

What did you decide on? Been four months since you began this thread.

 

[Joeytpg]

The Vh4 did not sell man..... so, nothing so far

 

[droptrd]

If you want cleans GET the silverface. They have a cleaner clean and can be had for less money. The higher power, the more headroom so the Showman is a good choice. The Bassman 135 is nice too. Most of the Fender amps are based on the same core circuit with the main differences being power output, speaker configuration, and effects (reverb/vibrato). The Bassmans do have a different bass channel.
Jerry

Im with Jerry on this. There is nothing wrong with the Silvers. I had a 72 bassman head that was awesome. That and my old RAT and I had some killer tones with that rig. The Showman is a great choice but harder to find than a bassman IME. Also dont over look the early Mesa Marks. They have very Fenderish cleans - since they are based off of a princeton I think

 

[jlbaxe]

Sell the Egnater then get either a real Fender Bassman, Showman or other Fender.

 

[racerevlon]

If the Renegade 4 x 10 didn't weigh so much I'd have one in a heartbeat.