Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

thegame

Well-known member
Maybe. I'm not very familiar with how a Kemper profiles an amp or even if traditional sample rates are utilized with that technology but here's my take: The standard CD sample rate format of 16 bit/44.1 Hz is NOT high enough to capture all the nuances of high quality analog masters. BUT, upping the sample rates to 24 bit/96 Hz sounds much closer to the analog source material in terms of warmth, fullness, realism, detail, etc. If the current software engines in Kempers, etc are running something akin to the standard 16 bit sampling algorithm, perhaps if performance was upgraded to the equivalent of 24/96, or even higher, then these units may have a chance to start feeling and reacting like tube amps instead of merely sounding like them upon playback only.
 

Racerxrated

Well-known member
They are there. Were there 10 years ago. Kemper hasn't updated it's hardware much.

Golden ears are being deceived in blind tests. No one's hearing is good enough to distinguish them when done right.

All people can do is complain one wasn't done right. Claim the tube example wasn't setup right. It's nonsense. Frequencies are frequencies. No magic.
Recording yes....running direct, yes...but standing next to it (frfr or power amp) negative ghostrider. My bud gets a fantastic tone recorded and live through the pa. But no amount of tweaking gets his Kemper to feel and react like a real tube amp when you are standing in front of it.
 

italoop

Active member
You can tell the difference only if have good experience with real stuff. More time pass, more people will grow up knowing only digital, and listen to bad music.

PERFECT DIAGNOSIS!
That's exactly how it works and I am very afraid of (and sorry for) it.
Look at MP3! How many people in the last 2 generations out there never owned an HI-FI stereo setup and listened to music on it vs. badly compressed iPod/computer/phone "audio" files?
 

crwnedblasphemy

Well-known member
No, I don't think they will ever "get there"... if you have good ears, experience in using the real thing and a sensitivity for touch!
People... there is ONE thing that won't change and that is the voltage, power! The way a power section creates tone and feel in a real amp can't be perfectly reproduced as there are billions of variables that you can't calculate in a logic way as they are not linear.
World isn't a 5 volts reality... that's what a DSP needs to run.
I'm not sure how many of you have an ear and an eye to pro-audio gear... I mean mic/line/instr preamps, compressors, EQs, etc.... the stuff that MAKES tone, character, personality, joy of listening. No matter what technology has been used in the last 70 years, you ALWAYS find these things in the recording chain and often in playing situations too. To tell you the truth, since the beginning of digital recording and more and more recently w/plugins and modellers.... this pro-stuff (VOLTAGE!!!) has increased a lot in brands and number of products... proving how badly all non-analog technology requires VOLTAGE based monsters to get the right tone... now that's "getting there"!
Current efx are a tonal bloodbath.... 99% of them sound ugly, shrill, even nasty to ear drums.... as DSPs have gotten enough powerful to do the work of traditional inputs stages (preamp/filters/compander/etc,) which were what truly created the legendary tone of your classic units.
Take two legends, Lexicon 480 and H3000. These are still very expensive and sought after... open them up and find those Murata filters which have a mild tone and a way to react to input levels that makes tone just beautiful, wide and spread, warm and natural. Open up a Lex 300 or 480 and you'll fins a power section (transformer + analog input signal stages) that is MUCH larger than any whole current product. That tells you how much care was put in engineering the things. You can't model all behaviours of such sections and render them in the proper way.
So to my ears... digital is a great way to freeze audio events that have been processed thru tonal shaping ANALOG processes, where the natural essence of power and reactance work in a way that is the closest to respect human performance touch and dynamics, yet giving beautiful tone to what you play.

The same is true for guitar amps.... until the legacy treasure of tru amps will be alive, nothing can touch how a Fender Twin clean sounds like and classic Marshalls, Soldanos, Mesa Boogies....................... nothing.

Just to give you an idea about how your guitar (and everything else) gets recorded and plugs can't do what real outboard does, here are some examples that should make you hear how amazing these analog processes sound and how great their tone is at ANY setting. Never boomy nor shrill... but more importantly neven fake, never an "attempt to..."
The real thing is always better than its copy. That's now nature works. Respect for that is what keeps us human.

Listen,,,, even under YouTube bad audio processing...

Great post brotha. I agree. Listen, UAD and Fabfilter make some good products for digital mastering....but years ago 15+ I worked/interned in two studios. There were some things when listening back in the control room that just were impressive...the Neve preamps/ the pultecs, and the 1176s...made huge differences and just sounded gluey warm.
 

italoop

Active member
Great post brotha. I agree. Listen, UAD and Fabfilter make some good products for digital mastering....but years ago 15+ I worked/interned in two studios. There were some things when listening back in the control room that just were impressive...the Neve preamps/ the pultecs, and the 1176s...made huge differences and just sounded gluey warm.

I know UAD and Fabfilter PRO.... they are no better than anything else.
UAD has the value of taking the load off computer CPU... but the replicas are still... fake.
Fabfilter has a way to sound gentler and nicer than most plugs BUT it never creates any character because it can't.
Again... we do not live in a 5 volts universe!
;-)))
 

CNutz

Well-known member
Much as I hate to admit it, they are there now.

For years I've watched live bands plug AxeFX in direct. It sounded like shit to me. About a year ago, I watched an old friend do a reunion with his old band. He had an AxeFx into a power amp (not sure if it was tube, or SS) into a marshal cab. It sounded fucking amazing.

That's when I realized they are there if done right.
 

narad

Well-known member
No, I don't think they will ever "get there"... if you have good ears, experience in using the real thing and a sensitivity for touch!
People... there is ONE thing that won't change and that is the voltage, power! The way a power section creates tone and feel in a real amp can't be perfectly reproduced as there are billions of variables that you can't calculate in a logic way as they are not linear.

Nonlinear models are a thing and very good at simulating complex physics (sometimes with billions of particles) :


People make out like vacuum tubes are some impossible challenge for modeling (yea, maybe with a desktop computer from 2010) when in the academic world there's truly impressive modeling going, with particle physics sims going orders of magnitudes faster than just a few years ago. Likely modeling amps within the margin of error of natural variance between any two amps is already done, and just needs someone to put it in a box with decent latency specs.
 

rottingcorpse

Well-known member
Eventually tube rigs of all audio types will become very rare. Caps eventually go bad and must be replaced. Tubes will be harder to acquire. Digital will evolve more and more. Humans evolve too,becoming more accustomed to what they use as time goes on. And we as a species are evolving into using more disposable products. How many smart phones have you "upgraded" this past 10 years?

The young are always the first adopters of any new technologies. Rarely do they look back. Touring bands are using new technologies because they are easier,more consistent and take less space and weigh less. This means they are getting used to the sounds they are using night after night. Why would they not be using a Kemper or AXEFX in the studio if that's what they are playing every day?

Will these new technologies get "there" as the OP asks? Sure they will. But the "there" will be a moving target based on what/how our hearing/feeling evolves. Think about drum triggers for a moment. When the first electronic drum "kits" first came out,Vince Abbott got a set in the early 80's. They were easy to set up,took much less space and sounded pretty good in the club. Then triggers happened,and real drums could still be used for the feel but you had a plethora of sounds at your disposal. The goal posts kept moving. Same thing with these new guitar technologies.

Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.
 

italoop

Active member
Maybe. I'm not very familiar with how a Kemper profiles an amp or even if traditional sample rates are utilized with that technology but here's my take: The standard CD sample rate format of 16 bit/44.1 Hz is NOT high enough to capture all the nuances of high quality analog masters. BUT, upping the sample rates to 24 bit/96 Hz sounds much closer to the analog source material in terms of warmth, fullness, realism, detail, etc. If the current software engines in Kempers, etc are running something akin to the standard 16 bit sampling algorithm, perhaps if performance was upgraded to the equivalent of 24/96, or even higher, then these units may have a chance to start feeling and reacting like tube amps instead of merely sounding like them upon playback only.

You are confusing representation of an existing audio recording with how the most important elements of it are created.
Sampling vs. playing the real thing. It's a whole different subject than modelling.
But even staying within the sampling world, sure you can move up to much higher specs than those ancient ones you report.
Hey... my computer external D/A converter can read and play 32bit/768KHz audio--- but it doesn't really represents reality in a better way because it's way past ear's resolution and true consciousness of it and still can represent things in a bad way.
Modelling happens AFTER and BEFORE ADC and DAC... so whatever you are trying to simulate could paradoxically be revealed as worst by such converters... than better. Add to that many artifacts happening when you run 192KHz and higher sampling rates. This ain't about how fast you run and how many pit stops you take.... it's about truth!
Sampling is not the key... ifyou put shit thru high quality DACs you will hear shit... better!
 

Beyond Black

Well-known member
none of you can tell on a recording in a pro mix

in the room through a cab is another story
Nailed it. I’ve seen the same bands live with tube amps and modelers and there’s a distinct difference in their tones. To my ears the modelers were more pristine, polite and polished sounding, and not in a good way. And I’m talking Exodus, Havok, Decapitated, Megadeth, Meshuggah, Ghost...
 
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italoop

Active member
Nonlinear models are a thing and very good at simulating complex physics (sometimes with billions of particles) :


People make out like vacuum tubes are some impossible challenge for modeling (yea, maybe with a desktop computer from 2010) when in the academic world there's truly impressive modeling going, with particle physics sims going orders of magnitudes faster than just a few years ago. Likely modeling amps within the margin of error of natural variance between any two amps is already done, and just needs someone to put it in a box with decent latency specs.
Let's listen to it!
 

Beyond Black

Well-known member
Eventually tube rigs of all audio types will become very rare. Caps eventually go bad and must be replaced. Tubes will be harder to acquire. Digital will evolve more and more. Humans evolve too,becoming more accustomed to what they use as time goes on. And we as a species are evolving into using more disposable products. How many smart phones have you "upgraded" this past 10 years?

The young are always the first adopters of any new technologies. Rarely do they look back. Touring bands are using new technologies because they are easier,more consistent and take less space and weigh less. This means they are getting used to the sounds they are using night after night. Why would they not be using a Kemper or AXEFX in the studio if that's what they are playing every day?

Will these new technologies get "there" as the OP asks? Sure they will. But the "there" will be a moving target based on what/how our hearing/feeling evolves. Think about drum triggers for a moment. When the first electronic drum "kits" first came out,Vince Abbott got a set in the early 80's. They were easy to set up,took much less space and sounded pretty good in the club. Then triggers happened,and real drums could still be used for the feel but you had a plethora of sounds at your disposal. The goal posts kept moving. Same thing with these new guitar technologies.

Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.
Wise words, well put sir. But I still think that when and if we reach that point, that generation of player will shit themselves the day they plug in to a really good, “old” tube amp. 😂
 

italoop

Active member
Eventually tube rigs of all audio types will become very rare. Caps eventually go bad and must be replaced. Tubes will be harder to acquire. Digital will evolve more and more. Humans evolve too,becoming more accustomed to what they use as time goes on. And we as a species are evolving into using more disposable products. How many smart phones have you "upgraded" this past 10 years?

The young are always the first adopters of any new technologies. Rarely do they look back. Touring bands are using new technologies because they are easier,more consistent and take less space and weigh less. This means they are getting used to the sounds they are using night after night. Why would they not be using a Kemper or AXEFX in the studio if that's what they are playing every day?

Will these new technologies get "there" as the OP asks? Sure they will. But the "there" will be a moving target based on what/how our hearing/feeling evolves. Think about drum triggers for a moment. When the first electronic drum "kits" first came out,Vince Abbott got a set in the early 80's. They were easy to set up,took much less space and sounded pretty good in the club. Then triggers happened,and real drums could still be used for the feel but you had a plethora of sounds at your disposal. The goal posts kept moving. Same thing with these new guitar technologies.

Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.

Last men with such total confidence in science were the Positivism movement... and they failed. So they had to re_learn everything and start thinking in a realistic way, rather than churchish enthusiasm.
Most of what comes next is not better by objective definition... just more convenient to make money.
Modeling is great in touring.... YES! The world has become an economic mess after 9/11 and still hasn't recovered at all, thanks to financial crisys and what we are going thru. Try moving a rig on flight companies and you'ìll know what they charge... understanding why modelling has gotten big.
Most of the pros recording with modelling... still own and use their full arsenal of real world technology, trust me.
Last but not least... tubes will never die because there is a MAIN military interest in them. You can stop any kind of transmission technology with a nuke... but can't stop tubes.
 

CNutz

Well-known member
Eventually tube rigs of all audio types will become very rare. Caps eventually go bad and must be replaced. Tubes will be harder to acquire. Digital will evolve more and more. Humans evolve too,becoming more accustomed to what they use as time goes on. And we as a species are evolving into using more disposable products. How many smart phones have you "upgraded" this past 10 years?

The young are always the first adopters of any new technologies. Rarely do they look back. Touring bands are using new technologies because they are easier,more consistent and take less space and weigh less. This means they are getting used to the sounds they are using night after night. Why would they not be using a Kemper or AXEFX in the studio if that's what they are playing every day?

Will these new technologies get "there" as the OP asks? Sure they will. But the "there" will be a moving target based on what/how our hearing/feeling evolves. Think about drum triggers for a moment. When the first electronic drum "kits" first came out,Vince Abbott got a set in the early 80's. They were easy to set up,took much less space and sounded pretty good in the club. Then triggers happened,and real drums could still be used for the feel but you had a plethora of sounds at your disposal. The goal posts kept moving. Same thing with these new guitar technologies.

Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.

This is 100% correct. You cannot stop progress no matter how much you long for the "Good ol days".

As humans we have a time frame we consider the high point of our life, we want to hang on to that. My suggestion stock up on those things that fit that era, and you can continue to live it up.

However everything else is going to continue to evolve around you, if it's something that effects your lively hood such as your job/profession you better evolve along with it, or be left in the dust.
 

Chris6870

Well-known member
I think younger players will embrace modelling, and it will become the standard and older analog/tube guys will die off. Kind of the way it worked with vinyl and cassettes, home audio,vintage cars, and all technology in general. It will be a niche thing for some but not mainstream. Just my opinion.
 

BatmansRigTalk

Active member
Recording yes....running direct, yes...but standing next to it (frfr or power amp) negative ghostrider. My bud gets a fantastic tone recorded and live through the pa. But no amount of tweaking gets his Kemper to feel and react like a real tube amp when you are standing in front of it.
That's because you are standing in the wrong place when replicating with FRFR. Guitar cabs are direct but FRFR is angled. Think Dolby or home cinema with a subwoofer. You can get the same effect but at different positions.
 

Donnie B.

Well-known member
Golden ears are being deceived in blind tests. No one's hearing is good enough to distinguish them when done right.

Funny how the top names have stopped doing double blind tests because they were all starting to fail them! :ROFLMAO:

And ya, knowing how to use the equipment correctly goes a long way.
Raise your hands if you've heard someone make a Mesa Boogie Mark amp sound terrible.
 

Racerxrated

Well-known member
That's because you are standing in the wrong place when replicating with FRFR. Guitar cabs are direct but FRFR is angled. Think Dolby or home cinema with a subwoofer. You can get the same effect but at different positions.
Dude. I’ve tried FRFR, power amp with cab sim off, both tube and my HH solid state m900. I’ve tried my friends Kemper set up, which sounds killer recorded and foh. I’ve wanted to like these as much as my real amps but they just don’t get there, no matter how I’ve tried with the AXE II or my friends Kemper. They sound fake and processed in front of me, to the side, and behind. No amount of ‘but you gotta try’ is gonna change these facts. They are great tools for recording and playing out, direct to a pa but when I’ve played them in a room they are clearly fake sounding.
 

italoop

Active member
Everything evolves and gets better until it is replaced by the next thing. Homo Habilus became Homo Erectus became Homo Sapien. But there were a bunch of smaller changes between all three of these that lead to the eventual arrival to modern man. And tho we have seen some de-evolution in society,we as a species will continue to evolve until we are destroyed or are replaced by whatever the next thing is. Such is life. Such is technology. Such is guitar.

The latest is NOT always the greatest by definition! Evolution is something else.
If you are american you should know that your gov. just landed on mars, again, and Perseverance is running on none other than a PowerPC 750, a single-core, 233MHz processor with just 6 million transistors that’s most famous for powering the original “Bondi blue” iMac from 1998. It’s the same type of processor that NASA already uses in its Curiosity rover. Such IS technology!
 
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