Engl InvaderI/II Or SE E670?

[Intimidator333]

After research and owning a Savage I've decided Engl is my sound. At least their type of gain structure. Owned a Savage. Loved it minus the lack of low end girth. Decided I'm probably going to go for an Invader or an SE as they seem to be Engls with a bit more girth. What is everyone's thoughts that have played both? Also as for the Invaders, do you prefer the original or the II? Should mention I'm referring to these amps in a modern detuned metal context. Fear Factory, Meshuggah, SYL, PanterA, Machine Head, Napalm Death, blah blah you get it.

 

[Speeddemon]

As an owner of 3 Engls (and countin'....but don't let the Ms. hear that ) I prefer the Invader I over the 6L6 version of the SE.
I actually preferred the older Savage SE over the current SE.
But with the bands you mentioned, why not look at a Powerball II ? Way more character than the PB I, but it retains that tight clarity. The Invader has that too on Channel 3, but CH2 is more a loose Plexi-to-hotrodded JCM approximation with less hair and more smoothness, and CH4 is very middy and saturated for leads (also not very tight).

I hear ya on the lack of low-end girth with the Savage though; can't run my 60 without the Depth boost on. I do run the bass high (between 2 and 3 'o clock) and mids lower (below 10 'o clock) and once you give it volume, it becomes thick. You also need to run the channel volumes at least at 50% for that amp to come alive and I do the same on the Invader. Channel volumes at 1/4th with the master higher gives a very anemic tone, that sounds more IC-ish than tubelike. Once you crank the channel volumes to 50-70%, it comes alive.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

The SE crushes the Invader and Invader II for modern metal. This is why almost zero bands use the Invader. If you look around, most bands are using the PB2, Savage, or SE. There's a reason for this. Necrophagist, Dimmu Borgir, Chris Broderick, Jeff Loomis, Andre Olbrich, Alexi Laiho.

The Invader is more of a modern hard rock or classic metal amp. It's nowhere are as evil, modern sounding as the SE. The chug factor is not the same.

The Invader Channel 4 is a little too dark, bassy, muffled, not enough cut (not what you expect from an Engl)... and Channel 3 is not the classic Power Metal / Death Metal tone you expect either. Better used for hard/modern rock. This is one reason Engl quickly released a second version, different wattage options (also discontinued) and most recently the "sound wizard plug-in module" to help overcome these "issues" as well some others... which still persist. They keep trying band-aid fixes with the Invader. The Invader is the Powerball 1.0 preamp with an EL34 power amp and 4 separate channels... Get the Special Edition... its the amp the Invader wants to be when it grows up.

 

[indespise]

Depending on how much versatility you want, you might be doing yourself a disservice to rule out the Fireball 100- it could save you quite a bit of cash versus the others as well. Tons and tons of girth with the mid boost engaged, without ending up remotely flubby.

 

[SavageRiffer]

I'm going to disgree big time on the Invader, especially the Invader II. With the Wizard module, you can get any sound you want, but it's not like that's really too necessary since the Invader already has 4 versatile channels. Yes, the SE is a superior amp in a few ways, but I absolutely dig the Invader. It sounds so damned good, it's so versatile, and it has a great, punchy feel to it that makes it ideal for riffing and shredding. Don't buy any BS about it being dark, etc... because you can find an equal number of reviews of people complaining that it's too bright. It really depends on the speaker too. V30's are standard, Engl seems to like Creambacks these days. I used mine with Celestion Gold and loved it. The Invader is my overall favorite Engl. The cleans are superb by the way. There is no flaw in the Invader, so anything more than minor, insignificant gripes is an exaggeration.

 

[MetalHeadMike]

I hear ya on the lack of low-end girth with the Savage though; can't run my 60 without the Depth boost on. I do run the bass high (between 2 and 3 'o clock) and mids lower (below 10 'o clock) and once you give it volume, it becomes thick. You also need to run the channel volumes at least at 50% for that amp to come alive and I do the same on the Invader. Channel volumes at 1/4th with the master higher gives a very anemic tone, that sounds more IC-ish than tubelike. Once you crank the channel volumes to 50-70%, it comes alive.

This is definitely gonna be subjective, but I have a 2014 Savage 120, and the low end is thick as hell. I run the bass at 9 to 10 o'clock with depth boost engaged and its massive sounding. I go back and forth between it and my FB 100, and I never feel like the Savage is lacking in the low end. Its a different bass response but not lacking. When I first got it, I thought the FB 100 was way thicker, but I hadn't been running the Savage with the depth boost engaged. Its no where near say a Herbert's low end, but definitely capable of thick thick tones.

Not sure if the larger OT in the post 2011 amps makes the difference, but mines a 2014. The OT is huge, and this amp can sound monstrous.

 

[MetalHeadMike]

Depending on how much versatility you want, you might be doing yourself a disservice to rule out the Fireball 100- it could save you quite a bit of cash versus the others as well. Tons and tons of girth with the mid boost engaged, without ending up remotely flubby.

I agree with this as well

 

[Gsxrbusa]

Iv'e owned FB100, Powerball V2, Invader 150, Invader II with Wizard module, SE EL34 version and played an original Fireball 60 and a Blackmore.

The Invader II and the SE el34 were by far my favorites. The Invader II had a huge bottom end. The most of any of the Engls I tried. As for all out tone I preferred the SE. The tonal options on both were amazing though. So freakin versatile. I could be happy with either of these amps. I have never been a big fan of 6L6 and prefer EL34 family or KT88. I loaded KT77s in them all and was very pleased.

 

[RockyStar]

For my tastes the SE is the way to go.

 

[Speeddemon]

The Invader is the Powerball 1.0 preamp with an EL34 power amp and 4 separate channels...

I'm sorry, but that's just utter bullshit.

Have you ever played both? Given the fact that Engls in general get their drive and character from the PREAMP, the huge tonal differences between the Powerball I and Invader couldn't be attested to merely a different poweramp section.

Powerball I to me was clinical, overly tight, characterless. Invader is smooth, characterful, and has no clinical artifacts whatsoever. (PB II is much improved though).

Get the Special Edition... its the amp the Invader wants to be when it grows up.

Rrright.... I actually had GAS for a long time for the SE; then a buddy of mine wanted something more versatile than his Blackmore sig. We played a whole bunch of high-$$ amps and he went home with the Invader, after playing various Soldano's, Diezels and Engls, including the SE.

Mind you, my idea of good guitartone is usually not found in the death/black metal realm. Recent Kreator, Accept, Exodus albums, sure... That being said, I found the SE a bit dissapointing at the time, even though I remember the ol' Savage SE to be extremely nice.
Another buddy of mine has one for sale, but the fact that it lacks a footswitchable fx-loop is keeping me from getting it (next to cashflow issues and some physical limitations of adding even more amps to my house )

 

[Mklane]

SE el34 owner here. It is the most crushing, evil sounding amp I have ever played or heard. I have owned a Savage and a FB 100 and while I did dig those amps the SE is in another league. Also more low end on tap than one will ever need.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

I'm sorry, but that's just utter bullshit.

My feelings regarding your opinions as well. Cheers.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

SE el34 owner here. It is the most crushing, evil sounding amp I have ever played or heard. I have owned a Savage and a FB 100 and while I did dig those amps the SE is in another league. Also more low end on tap than one will ever need.

+100

I completely agree. The Special Edition EL34 is in another league. Evil with insane low end.

 

[Speeddemon]

I'm sorry, but that's just utter bullshit.

My feelings regarding your opinions as well. Cheers.

That's the thing. I didn't post my opinion as a FACT.

Do you have schematics to back up your preposterous claim that the Invader I is merely a PB I preamp with a different powersection?

And what exactly have I written that you specifically find bullshit in regards to Engls?
I specifically mentioned the 6L6 SE as being perceived less awesome than the Invader. You two go on about the EL34 version. Who knows, maybe that one is better.
But claiming my OPINIONS as bullshit when you yourself are presenting bullshit as FACT...well...


(PS, I do agree with you that I wouldn't make the Invader the first choice for modern metal... Given that I play mostly 70's/80's stuff, it suited me better than the SE....FWIW)

 

[Speeddemon]

And crickets....figured as much.

I noticed you've been spewing that 'Invader is just a PB I preamp' crap on SSO as well...

Please stop.
Oh, and as for 'you don't see any bands playing the Invader live'...hmm...Judas Priest, Kreator... I know, I know...small fries...
And more big stars listed here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showth ... p?t=122050

Now, mind you, I'm no Invader fanboy or anything, but I can't stand blatant BS.

 

[shredhead7]

I've owned the Powerball and I currently own the SE EL34 version. I thought the Powerball was awesome. Channel 3 (on all Engl's) is the gem. The clean is pristine clean, on both the SE and the Powerball. You can add some dirt on the SE, but to my ears, they both sound sterile on the clean channel, but that is not why we buy Engl's. The Powerball's gain channels are very close to the SE, in fact that is why I ultimately sold the Powerball and kept the SE. The SE had the two best parts of the Powerball and added a dozen other options. As an aside, I don't know if the Invader has the cable tester on the back, but I use it all the time on my SE. You're at band practice and your bass player is cutting in and out on his shitty Korean Ibanez five string, test the cable. Oh, your $10 musicians friend cable has a loose solder joint, you don't say? In any case, I haven't tried the Invader, but the Powerball (for less money) and the SE both kill for death metal and heavy tones. Put it this, it's like Sneaps production coming from your amp. When you do pull the trigger, these things have more bass than you will ever need. It is really easy to crank that shit up by pressing every button on the front panel and it will make your neighbor shit themselves, literally. This isn't really a great thing in a live setting, as those frequencies eat up the bass player, the PA and the kicks. Keep that in mind when you're on stage.

 

[Speeddemon]

In any case, I haven't tried the Invader, but the Powerball (for less money) and the SE both kill for death metal and heavy tones. Put it this, it's like Sneaps production coming from your amp. When you do pull the trigger, these things have more bass than you will ever need. It is really easy to crank that shit up by pressing every button on the front panel and it will make your neighbor shit themselves, literally. This isn't really a great thing in a live setting, as those frequencies eat up the bass player, the PA and the kicks. Keep that in mind when you're on stage.

Yep, it's definitely easier to get those tight and grinding tones from a Powerball than the Invader, when it comes to modern metal.
When I checked the 6L6 SE, I felt a bit like setting up a Mesa Mark IV; everything was interactive, but the typical tone that's in your head is hard to get.

I was just A/B-ing my Savage 60 (set to a very high gain tone) to my Invader's channel 3 (the tightest of that amp) in high gain mode. The Savage will have a bit dryer feel and more crushing too, so I can imagine the Savage 120 will take that even further.
As some folks have commented before, while some Engls have an o.k. clean channel, the Invader does have one of the best cleans (a Diezel D-Moll and a Mesa Mark IV are my other favs when it comes to cleans from a high gain channel switcher).
I need to go to a store some day and compare a bunch of them again; especially curious how the Invader II differs from the I and the SE.
I've heard a few clips that do suggest that the Channel 4 is now a bit tighter and more in line with Channel 3 on the Invader II.
On the Invader 1 it's a totally different tone; quite loose and middy and really only suited for leads. It will give you lovely thick tones, but it lacks any percussive tightness for riffing.

EDIT: At the OP; have you considered a Diezel Herbert by the way? An amp like that with Channel 2 in + mode with the Mid-Cut on should get you some decent PanterA-like tones. It has low-end in spades.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

And crickets....figured as much.

I noticed you've been spewing that 'Invader is just a PB I preamp' crap on SSO as well...

Please stop.
Oh, and as for 'you don't see any bands playing the Invader live'...hmm...Judas Priest, Kreator... I know, I know...small fries...
And more big stars listed here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showth ... p?t=122050

Now, mind you, I'm no Invader fanboy or anything, but I can't stand blatant BS.

You are clueless as evidenced by your posts.

If you can't understand the design and layout of the amps... that's not my issue. I'm not here to educate you. The preamp design, layout, and topology is very similar. 4 preamp tubes, 4 preamp gain stages, same noise gate, same small undersized output transformers... the Invader has EL34s in the power section vs 6L6GCs... ever notice they updated both the Powerball & Invader to the Series 2 versions around the same time? Why? Because the design layout and preamp circuits are very similar. To save on manufacturing costs. Do they sound different, yes... but you are paying for a tricked out Powerball. Sorry to break the news to you. The Invader does not have a different or unique preamp like the SE or Savage for example. Just open up the amps side by side as I have, and look at them. Simple.

As for bands... Ive never heard of any of those "big bands" in you linked post. Richie Falkner in Priest uses the PB2. Millie in Kreator has his own Engl Signature model based on the Fireball100. Get your facts straight.

EDIT: At the OP; have you considered a Diezel Herbert by the way? An amp like that with Channel 2 in + mode with the Mid-Cut on should get you some decent PanterA-like tones. It has low-end in spades.

I own a Herbert MkII (and used to own a MkI) and no channel or mode on the Herbert sounds anything like Dimebag's SS Randall Warhead... not remotely close. The Warhead Dimebag used was a super mid-scooped SS gained out sound. You have no idea what you are talking about. I doubt you own or have played any of these amps you mention. Sorry that myself, and others in this thread, prefer the SE to your shiny toy. Get over it. I'm done speaking to you.

 

[zewango]

Glenn Tipton used an Invader had it switched to 6l6's I believe.
He's pretty good

 

[sg guy]

-I thought Kreator used the ENGL extreme aggression Sig amp? or has that changed? I'm no ENGL expert but a former FB 100 & 60 owner, played a bunch of them, I still prefer the FB 100, probably because its simple, like me!

-carry on you crazy kids!,.. Don't forget to wash up when your through..