Stealthtastic
Active member
Anyone else notice this? They are wicked guitars but I think the aggressive rebranding thing they tried seriously backfired.
G
Gitfiddler
Well-known member
Aggressive pricing
Stealthtastic
Active member
Yeah I couldn't believe how cheap those LTD Elites were but it seemed like putting LTD on the hs made selling them a bit more difficult. What is kind of interesting is that Schecter, which is owned by the same parent company, has been getting more popular lately. I guess they have different marketing teams for each brand.
1
155
Well-known member
totally blew it with the e-ii shit im not intrested at all in that...rather just get a ltd or old std series...
SLOgriff
Well-known member
I do miss the old ESP! They seemed to have a lot to offer in the 90's and early 2000's with various shapes (strats, teles, etc...) colors. ESP had some of the best fret work out there! I can't believe they are still in business just offering "black" guitars for metal players. Like Reza mentioned, who wants E-II on their headstock...or even LTD.
RJF
Active member
I agree on the new pricing issue. They are sky high in comparison to just two years ago. Reminds me of Jackson to a certain extent, real popular for a long time and then just kind of drifted into the background.
neilli
New member
I'm a Jackson guy through and through but agree that they lost their direction / momentum / popularity. But I was bemoaning that fact to a store guy I know well and he was telling me that according to a well respected trade publication, Jackson are actually selling really well at the moment, to the point where they're outselling some of the companies that 'took' their market. I forget which companies it was now, but I have a feeling it was ESP, Ibanez and one other..
No idea if it's true or not, but it was a real surprise to hear that.
No idea if it's true or not, but it was a real surprise to hear that.
RJF
Active member
Well, you and I are probably two of the biggest Jackson fan boys here at RT, so that is great news. Jackson has, it seems, been trying hard the last 5 years or so to get in with the "current" styling. Direct mount pickups, more bridge options, the new headstock, much expanded 7 string line and a dive into the 8 string market, definitely trying to get current.neilli":5hyxqo9m said:
I like all things Jackson/ESP/BC Rich though. For me can't go wrong with 24 fret floyded neck through shreddyness.
I've never had an ESP yet, just a LTD EC1000 that I thought was great, my Grynch LTD that is awesome, and an old LTD exp-200 explorer. I'd like to buy an M1 or M2 eventually, I wouldn't pass up an MX250 either.
steve_k
New member
Stealthtastic":1mok0607 said:
this usually happens when you dumb down the brand.
Pushead
Active member
I recently won an E-II Eclipse for dirt cheap from a 0 feedback seller on ebay. I wrote this review a few weeks after I bought it comparing it to my ESP Standard Eclipses:
I love ESP guitars. Especially used ones.
The introduction of the E-II brand to the ESP family was met with quite a bit of, well let's call it hesitation. The reason for the change doesn't matter at this point. ESP Standard is gone and there is E-II to replace it.
I was one of many, who said that I'd probably not get an E-II guitar when used ESP Standards were plentiful in the used market. But I found a fairly good deal on a used E-II Eclipse (in a color and price that I don't often find used ESPs) so I thought I'd give it a try. I've had it few weeks, and thought I'd give my impressions.
The Good:
My immediate reaction was good. There was an immediate familiar feeling. If someone had put the guitar in my hands and had never shown me the headstock, I would have said "yep, another ESP Eclipse." The neck size, shape, controls, even the weight are what I'm used to. (Though I've played a few really light Eclipses, mostly those are LTDs.)
The sound is also what I'm used to. Granted, it's another guitar with EMGs, and while guitars will sound different, you pretty much know what to expect.
The Gotoh locking tuners are very nice feeling. I've only done one string change with them (previous owner used very light strings, and I like heavy gauges) so I won't say they're hands-down better than Sperzels or the old Gotoh locking types, but I like them very much. I also like the Schaller strap lock buttons as stock (I don't know if they come with the locking mechanism for the strap, if they do, the previous owner held-out on me.) The Tone-Pros locking bridge and stop bar are great.
The Less Good:
The fretboard. Ignore, for a second, that in this color I'd prefer an ebony fretboard from an aesthetic point-of-view. The rosewood is very light. This could just be the piece on my sepeific guitar, but looking at the photos on the ESP product page, and the videos linked from there, they all look very light. It just seems off to me. Especially when compared to the rosewood boards two of my other Eclipses.
(I wasn't able to get a good picture of fretboard vs fretboard in the same shot. I'll put one in when I get a chance to shoot in better light tomorrow.)
While we're dealing with the neck, the inlay material has also changed. This E-II is a 2014 model, and my most modern ESP Standard Eclipse is from 2009. At some point (perhaps even when they were branded as ESP) they changed the material from something that looks like shell (I doubt it's actually mother of pearl) to a perloid. Again, it's a personal perspective thing, but to me it just seems like something that belongs on a lower-quality guitar.
Still on the inlays, there's a chip on the corner of the first-fret inlay. I bought the guitar used, so I'm willing to believe that this wasn't something from the factory, but the filling material is level with the fretboard and inlay. There isn't a divot where the missing part of the inlay should be. The photo below looks like there would be a recess, but my finger nail scrapes right over it. It's level.
My Conclusion:
I played the E-II and a few of the ESP Standards back-to-back and they feel very similar. As I said above, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between any of them if I was blindfolded and someone put them into my hands (except for the knobs). It's just the aesthetic that gets me. I know the things I find less good about the guitar are mostly personal preference, but to me it makes the guitar look like something lower-quality. I expect light fretboards and perloid inlays on my LTD EC-401b, I expect them on my friends EC-1000, but I don't expect them on a guitar at this price point.
It's a very nice guitar. I'll keep it around. But as I mentioned in another thread in the E-II forum, I'm attached to the brand. I'll still take a used ESP Standard over a similar E-II. Not because the E-II isn't a quality guitar, but because the ESP brand holds more value to me.
As always, your mileage may vary. It's a review worth nearly what you've paid for it. Please consult a physician before beginning any guitar related activity. Thank you, drive through.
My Qualifications:
Not that everything written on the internet isn't already 100% fact, or written by someone with experience in the subject matter, but sometimes people are leary of reviews. I've played guitar for nearly 30 years; written, recorded, gigged, YouTubed, Djented, repaired, built, the whole nine-yards. I've owned ESP guitars since the late 90s and everything from 200 level LTD guitars to Custom Shop ESPs. ESP made guitars make up nearly half of my collection.
I love ESP guitars. Especially used ones.
T
Tone Zone
Banned
New member
Stealthtastic":nu7pqauw said:
SERIOUSLY BACKFIRED ....sums it up alright.
neilli
New member
Of course, the danger with those additions is they are another way that the identity of the brand becomes diluted. You take the import lines, then the non-core models and potentially you have a brand that doesn't quite know what it is.RJF":5odk75hz said:
That said of course, those changes might still be successful, if you have the right players with the right profile writing the right songs at the right time!
Pushead
Active member
The prevailing story about the ESP Standard to E-II change was to protect the ESP name in Japan. ESP in Japan was only ever supposed to be "Custom Shop" / "Original Series" level guitars. ESP made the "Standard Series" guitars for export to the rest of the world. The "Standard Series" guitars were built and assembled in the equivalent of a production line, whereas the "Custom Shop" & "Original Series" guitars were built with one luthier doing (or overseeing) all of the work on a single guitar.
What happened was a few Japanese shops (or more likely a few Japanese individuals) started importing ESP Standard guitars from outside of Japan. Because of the lower price but the same logo, Japanese consumers started purchasing the ESP "Standard Series" guitars instead of the "Custom Shop" guitars. The move, first to "LTD Elite" and then "E-II," was a way to defend the ESP brand as their highest quality, non-traditional models. (The Navigator brand is their high quality, vintage/traditional American guitar tribute line.)
It's an interesting strategy, and the E-II brand had to start at some time. I'm curious to see how the decision turns out. Other brands have had different strategies when it comes to the same set of circumstances. Ibanez gives all of their lines the "Ibanez" logo, regardless of the quality level (some Ibanez get "Prestige" or other qualifications.) Jackson went the same direction before being bought by Fender, but still works with the same idea. Fender is pretty much the similar, only their lowest level guitars get the "Squire" brand. Gibson has the Epiphone brand for their lower level guitars (and even a few brands below that). But in the last few years, even Gibson has started making $700 guitars branded with the "Gibson" logo.
I can say that I understand and respect the decision making process on ESP's part. But I'll also say that when used ESP Standard guitars are still readily available, I'll pick a used ESP Standard over a similarly priced E-II.
What happened was a few Japanese shops (or more likely a few Japanese individuals) started importing ESP Standard guitars from outside of Japan. Because of the lower price but the same logo, Japanese consumers started purchasing the ESP "Standard Series" guitars instead of the "Custom Shop" guitars. The move, first to "LTD Elite" and then "E-II," was a way to defend the ESP brand as their highest quality, non-traditional models. (The Navigator brand is their high quality, vintage/traditional American guitar tribute line.)
It's an interesting strategy, and the E-II brand had to start at some time. I'm curious to see how the decision turns out. Other brands have had different strategies when it comes to the same set of circumstances. Ibanez gives all of their lines the "Ibanez" logo, regardless of the quality level (some Ibanez get "Prestige" or other qualifications.) Jackson went the same direction before being bought by Fender, but still works with the same idea. Fender is pretty much the similar, only their lowest level guitars get the "Squire" brand. Gibson has the Epiphone brand for their lower level guitars (and even a few brands below that). But in the last few years, even Gibson has started making $700 guitars branded with the "Gibson" logo.
I can say that I understand and respect the decision making process on ESP's part. But I'll also say that when used ESP Standard guitars are still readily available, I'll pick a used ESP Standard over a similarly priced E-II.
bish0p34
Member
SLOgriff":1a9qygwz said:
I'd much rather have LTD on my headstock. In that situation, you'd know and accept you were buying a cheaper instrument. E-II is like paying premium prices for that same cheaper instrument. Not that it really is, but it's branded that way.
Rock Bodom
Active member
A lot of brands seems to struggle with the working man player grade models in the $1500-2000 range. Not offshored, but not custom shop, generally solid production models. Kind of what I think the ESP standard series was. I feel like these should be the core line of any large maker, and they should put their name proudly on them. Then label the bargain and luxury lines accordingly.
Though if they really wanted to reserve ESP for the custom shop, I could have handled the Edwards name better than E-II.
Though if they really wanted to reserve ESP for the custom shop, I could have handled the Edwards name better than E-II.
Knockout
Active member
Japanese marketing is a weird thing.
I think though, they are counting on a long term investment. People need to forget ESP a little, and some artists need to get spoted with E-IIs and things may pick up.
I think though, they are counting on a long term investment. People need to forget ESP a little, and some artists need to get spoted with E-IIs and things may pick up.
Knockout
Active member
It's an interesting strategy, and the E-II brand had to start at some time. I'm curious to see how the decision turns out. Other brands have had different strategies when it comes to the same set of circumstances. Ibanez gives all of their lines the "Ibanez" logo, regardless of the quality level (some Ibanez get "Prestige" or other qualifications.) Jackson went the same direction before being bought by Fender, but still works with the same idea. Fender is pretty much the similar, only their lowest level guitars get the "Squire" brand. Gibson has the Epiphone brand for their lower level guitars (and even a few brands below that). But in the last few years, even Gibson has started making $700 guitars branded with the "Gibson" logo.
I can say that I understand and respect the decision making process on ESP's part. But I'll also say that when used ESP Standard guitars are still readily available, I'll pick a used ESP Standard over a similarly priced E-II.[/quote]
The problem with that(little bit off topic), in my opinion, is that the brands like Jackson, Dean, Ibanez killed the 'treasure' status of their brand. Because there are tons of crappy $150 Deans the $4500 Custom Shop NAMM showpiece will not have resale value(on the used market) as the same NAMM piece of EBMM (because they have Sterling), ESP (because of LTD..as of now), or other brands that have 'little sister" brands. Jackson is actually suffering the same fate,(especially after Fender). The only thing that keeps them afloat is that their "Made in USA" in in the front of the headstock...imagine Jackson moving it on the back like Dean. Even Ibanez has to put "Prestige" on the front by the logo.
I can say that I understand and respect the decision making process on ESP's part. But I'll also say that when used ESP Standard guitars are still readily available, I'll pick a used ESP Standard over a similarly priced E-II.[/quote]
The problem with that(little bit off topic), in my opinion, is that the brands like Jackson, Dean, Ibanez killed the 'treasure' status of their brand. Because there are tons of crappy $150 Deans the $4500 Custom Shop NAMM showpiece will not have resale value(on the used market) as the same NAMM piece of EBMM (because they have Sterling), ESP (because of LTD..as of now), or other brands that have 'little sister" brands. Jackson is actually suffering the same fate,(especially after Fender). The only thing that keeps them afloat is that their "Made in USA" in in the front of the headstock...imagine Jackson moving it on the back like Dean. Even Ibanez has to put "Prestige" on the front by the logo.
ZL1Hawk
New member
I own 2 E-II's plus I just received my first ESP custom so there is plenty of love from me for ESP. Brands go though their ups and downs and guitar players are a fickle bunch. I agree with most of you guys on that the market didn't respond well to ESP's changes.
I just go straight to Japan and get my stuff.
I just go straight to Japan and get my stuff.
billsbigego
Well-known member
Can't you just get an Edwards and have the Japanese quality? Instead of gambling on an LTD? Just curious. I have never owned one.
VC4Ever
New member
Edwards aren't made in Japan. Its all an illusion. They only send them to Japan from China for final assembly/setup.