Feel like answering some noob questions about Rack rigs?

[IamTheHuman]

I've searched the forums a bit, and overall, its rather daunting to read through all the posts about random things to get the questions I have answered, so I figured I would just do it here.

I'm looking into getting a rack setup for my guitar rig, to use in studio, and live. I run a recording studio, so I want a guitar preamp with midi presets. Obviously Engl is at the top of my list for that. I've heard that Diezel also does that, but they don't make plain preamps, just full heads. My goal is to get a very universal, preamp, and have various poweramps for the color of other manufacturers. The Engl Special edition preamp and the midi tube preamp are the ones I'm looking at. Feel free to recommend others, but those are the primary ones I've seen that do what want. My question is does anyone know the differences between the midi tube preamp and the special edition preamp? The engl site isn't very good at being descriptive honestly. It says something about great midi control with the E580, but what more can you do with that than you can do with the E570? And do the actual preamps sound different? The price gap between them is over $1000, so I'd like to know what that extra 1k is gonna get me, and if its worth it. I did find a used midi tube pre for 2200 though, so ya know.

The next question is about poweramps. Which one should I start out with? Whenever I see dudes with these pre's, they never almost never have the engl poweramp. Why not? Most of the time its a mesa. Now, I've personally NEVER liked the sound of mesa amps. Its not that I think they sound bad, well, I guess I do, but I know its just personal preference. I like tight, strong, controlled sound, and mesa seems a little more... "raw" to put it politely. I haven't seen too many poweramp manufacturers though. Marshall, Engl, Mesa are the primary ones. So... who else does? Or is anyone else even worth it?

Next question. Effects. I like to have total control over where my effects go. Sometimes I want them pre-distortion, sometimes I want them post. Even reverbs sometimes go pre-distortion. But I want a system that can do the routing for me exactly as I want, and sometimes, it can be very complex. I'm used to a boss GT-6 for effects, and long ago, it was also my distortion. I grew accustomed to being able to change where effects were placed in the chain, as well as the distortion (preamp now). What effects racks/systems can do this? Or will I need a complex switcher setup?

Thanks for everyone's time. I know these questions have probably already been asked in previous threads, but I tried the search function, and hundreds of threads came up. Call me lazy, but I prefer the more direct route. I already tried calling several guitar stores, but none have worked with higher end stuff like this. Anyone with clips of either preamp direct recording would be totally appreciated!

 

[threadkiller]

Most people get a good power amp and will use different preamps for tone variation instead of the other way around. The power amp tends to be the more expensive though they can both cost a pretty penny. For what you are describing I would consider the Axe-Fx which is technically a modeler instead of a preamp but a very good one. As for power amps I would take a look at Fryette and Randall. I know nothing about the Engl stuff other than I hear it sounds good. Welcome to rig talk by the way.

 

[IamTheHuman]

Thanks for the welcome! Honestly, I hate the Axe-Fx sound. More than I dislike Mesa. I definitely like the tone of the Engl amps, and Diezel as well. I couldn't decide between the two, however, since Diezel doesn't do preamps, the choice was luckily made for me. I don't really like the modeled tone. I can always tell the difference, and its just not for me. Gimme some real tubes damnit! Same with the eleven rack. Just... meh. Any other ideas about FX routing? I've read a bit about the G-system, but I'm not completely sure on it.

 

[Ancient Alien]

The only real difference between the E580 and the E570SE is the amount of MIDI control you have over the parameters.
I've owned both and sold both. Just don't dig the sterile Engl tone.
The 570 actually has more on the high gain brutal tone.
There are many preamp manufacturers out there to choose from also.
I personally love the GP3 and a modded JMP1, they cover all the ground you would ever need as far as variety of tones.
Power amps to me ate Fryette 2/90/2 and 2/50/2, the industry leader and standard.
I also hate the AxeFX live. Great tool for the studio, but I would never use one live, though the effects are excellent.
As for effects, the Axe will do, but I prefer the TC Electronic G Force and the Eventide Eclipse or GTR4000.
There is a lot to look into to suit your own needs.
Maybe take a look over at Hugeracksinc.com

 

[IamTheHuman]

Have any clips of things you recorded from when you had them?

 

[glpg80]

Engl is not the only thing used right now for MIDI. just because it does not have it built in does not mean it does not exist or cannot be accomplished with other more-simple manners of preamp and poweramp controls.

do some research in two companies, CAE, (owner Bob Bradshaw), and RJM Electronics - more specifically from them the Amp Gizmo, Effects Gizmo, and RG-16 which is half and half of the previously mentioned components. these allow any channel switcher amplifier able to change channels and settings using CC or PC commands whether they have MIDI or not.

why you are wanting to simulate different power amplifiers in the studio, i would assume that you would know that microphone placement, speakers, cabinets, cables, tubes, tube life, preamp tones, and guitars would make much more difference in overall tone compared to the poweramplifier, unless you are pushing the triodes into tube compression first which is quite loud and therefore needs special microphones to handle the dB levels without distortion and therefore colours your sound even more differently - or - you need a pretty stout false speaker load and emulation software, and only use one amplifier and taylor your different sounds after that amplifier.

i would recommend a single power amplifier and another component called a Two-Notes Torpedo VR101.

but be prepared to open your wallet on this one.

http://www.two-notes.com/en/Produits-Tw ... VB101.html

this will allow you to further taylor your sound live and in the studio in a controlled manner and also save your back from having to lift different power amplifiers. it allows you to directly input your poweramplifier of choice without speakers connected for studio use. instead you only have whichever poweramplifier you choose to maintain which can be ran into the Two Notes as a false load and further taylor your tone directly.

as for effects, i recommend either the HT-500 from line-6 using the 4 cable method for pre-and post preamp distortion effects, or use an RG-16 or Effects Gizmo to switch footpedals in/out of the signal chain in front of the distortion and a multi-rack effects processor for post-distortion effects, or a mix of other units. G Major II, G-force, PCM 81 from lexicon, Rocktron Intellifex, Eventide units, etc - many of them will be a huge improvement over what you are using now.

then of course there is the modeler route of preamp and poweramp tubed tones.....but ill keep my opinion to myself on this one. you will always get axe fx haters and axe fx lovers - its the same as chevy and ford.

these are methods i would recommend. all depends on your budget and demands. but all of this gets pretty complicated once you start thinking about series and parallel effects routing which out the door in the first few comments are reasons why people recommend the axe-fx - it has these capabilities built into it. i wouldnt settle yourself only to engl and diezel because of the MIDI - they are definately two differently acquired tastes tone wise. and the doors of possibilities are much wider than just two companies.

good luck. hope some other answers help you out.

 

[guitarslinger]

How much money are you looking to spend?

The older I get, the less complex my rack setups become.

me = pedalboard-->rack preamp-->rack delay-->rack reverb --> power amp

all in series.

 

[Ancient Alien]

Have any clips of things you recorded from when you had them?

I'd have to really dig through the archives to find something.
But I can definitely say that I never used either on a high quality recording since I just didn't like the tone.
I may have a few noodling clips I can look for.

 

[Ancient Alien]

How much money are you looking to spend?

The older I get, the less complex my rack setups become.

me = pedalboard-->rack preamp-->rack delay-->rack reverb --> power amp

all in series.

LOL.
I agree.
My 20 space NASA control unit doesn't get nearly as much use as smaller more simple series rigs.
My ultimate mini rig right now is
Guitar(volume, wah whammy 2, Decimator)-GP3-GTR4000-2/90/2- 2 4x12 FB's

 

[Ancient Alien]

What kind of music are you playing?
Heavy, dropped tunings? Rock? Etc?

 

[IamTheHuman]

And if possible, clips of the new VHT one you have, or the jmp-1? Honestly, I personally never dug the marshall tone that much. The VHT is the one I'm more interested in hearing. I will need an amp capable of the marshall tone however, or at least something close, but for my own personal use, as stated above, I like tight, controlled sound. My personal music is very thick and textured, and so I need a guitar sound that compliments already thick mixes (lots of synths and classical instruments).

Regarding my choice on midi preamps, I actually really like the tone of the engl and diezel amps quite a bit. I've yet to come across any that I like the sound of better, that ALSO have midi capability. You're right about the chevy/ford thing, but I can always tell the difference between the two (modeled vs the real thing). Though, I'll admit, I like the Axe FX tone for single string low riffs, but the chugs and powercords don't sound right to me.

I've worked with several amps so far that didn't work out tone wise for me, a marshall JCM 900? I think? Or DSL? I can't remember, a krank revolution (which I've gotten to sound okay with what I need, but its terrible for leads), and a peavey triple xxx recently. None of them had the right sound to me. Now, listening to the user recordings of both the amps I listed, that tone, I dig.

Not trying to simulate different power amplifiers. Just willing to get more than one to help further shape tone for clients who have shitty amps. If it turns out to be better to get one great poweramp and then get several preamps, I may go that route, but my first preamp I want is based on my taste first, and then utilitarian uses second. As far as the line 6 stuff goes, I HATED the XT live, is the HD-500 better? Cause that things programming sucked major ass. I'm used to the boss lineup for programming FX. I recently got to use a GT-10, and the programming was damn good. The tone of some of the FX wasn't as great though. I like to do things like program an expression pedal to act like a steve vai bad horsie (back is off, move it forward at all, it turns on). I like to do that with a lot of effects, so I can control the tone of the effect and turn it on simultaneously.

And yes, drop tuned hard rock/industrial/metal personally (sometimes simultaneously, depending on the song). Used to be down at B-standard, but I'm finding drop C a little more fun to play in.

 

[mightywarlock]

I actually really like the tone of the engl and diezel amps quite a bit

So...
Unless you need a million different preset sounds, patches, etc...(Engl preamp)
get yourself a Diezel VH4.
I don't think there is any question about its studio capabilities. and it can produce different tones as well.
Just ask Korn. or Tool. or Metallica. or even James Lugo.

And if you need some effects, just get a TC Electronic G-Force (like the one I have for sale)!
That Boss will only get you so far...

If you like the German tone, since you are so big on Engl and Diezel, higher compressed tones,
Why would you consider the raspy Marshall JMP-1?

 

[IamTheHuman]

Hahaha, well, just because I don't like marshall tone overall, doesn't mean they may not have a product I could dig. I'm open is all. I want to find the best solution. I would like a lot of presets personally. Slightly different sets of sounds for different bands/projects, and also, something I've run into live, is some nights, the sound of the room just requires a certain alteration of tone to be compatible. I'd like duplicate patches for my live setup that have slight alterations (like one setting "normal," another with cut treble, another with cut bass, that sort of thing). Ironically, I play keyboards live. I don't even play guitar live, but I'm tired of the guitarists that I work with having shitty equipment. Fuck your POD! That's not a real amp god damnit! Cheap bastards... Hahaha. Anyway, so I want it for my studio for clients, and my own recording, and then to be used by my guitarist live. And you have a G-force for sale eh? Can it do that thing I described a few posts ago with wah? Essentially, fully back or "zero" is off, and "1" is on. Considering most digital devices use the midi format (0-127), that's still plenty of room for the wah. I also use that with pedal bends (like a whammy pedal).

But about the diezel, I would really prefer a separate preamp. I'm definitely looking to go the rack route. I'm open to the right head, and the VH4 definitely sounds awesome, but whats up with the presets? Doesn't it not have any?

 

[noob_pwn]

fwiw my axefx/2-90-2 rig sounds better than anything else I've used before, not to mention anyone my band has ever played with. It's unbelievably clear, dynamic and huge sounding and is only 6 rack spaces. It's consistent, simple, dead silent and so far 100% reliable. It is just as good in the studio and i can practice at all hours of the day through an interface & phones with my midi board on the floor just like my live rig. I really don't understand all the hate because my ears sure aren't broken and is surely not comparable to a POD or eleven rack.
Also, the effects on it alone are probably better than just about anything out there not to mention their routing ability. If i wasn't using it as a preamp I would surely have it in my rack just for this reason. The reverb algorithm is said to be one of the best ever and I would agree.
I don't get what the "axefx sound" is that everyone talks about here on this forum so if anyone would like to enlighten me please go ahead. Different strokes for different folks I guess but i think alot of this trash talk is hearsay

 

[IamTheHuman]

It is all personally taste. I personally don't care for the digital sound. I did a "amp test" thing where there were a number of different guitar clips, I think like, 10-15? I forget exactly. Some were solid state, some were modeled, some were tube. I was genuinely able to tell the difference, and accurately labeled each one, 100%. I'm not a great guitarist, by any means. I'm sure many people would feel that my "dream rig" is far superior to my playing skill, but I know my sound, and I know what I like, and can clearly identify it, obviously with great accuracy. I forget where the shootout was from, maybe recordingreview.com? Anyway, the sound of all the modeled guitars I heard on there, and the same with every single Axe-fx clip, is that the distortion has this somewhat strange tone to it. Kinda boxy, with what sounds like artificially added warmth and brightness. Like only the mid tone sounds natural, or maybe its the opposite? I'm not sure. And they always sound kinda... I don't know, fizzy to me. Ironically, the sound works really neat on single string riffs. But when it comes to chords/powerchords of any kind with distortion, and nice fast paced chug stuff, they just don't do it for me. Its like it unnaturally fills the frequency spectrum that a real tube amp just doesn't have to artificially do. And sometimes, just doesn't do period. What I've noticed with simulated guitar distortion, is that generally, it seems to occupy too much of the frequency spectrum in an unnatural way.

That's just my opinion of the distorted tone. The clean tone? I'm all for it. Honestly, I may end up getting an Axe-FX JUST for the FX, but there are certain things I require out of FX, including the ability to program the expression pedal as I've described above. I'm not a total digital hater. I'm just a digital distortion hater. And not even a hater, just disliker. I prefer the tone and overall sound of real tube amp distortion. Granted, I definitely like the tighter, more compressed sound, but I like that sound to be organically compressed. I'd take the tone of my krank revolution over axe fx any day, and I'm looking to sell my amp to get the preamp I want.

 

[threadkiller]

How much money are you looking to spend?

The older I get, the less complex my rack setups become.

me = pedalboard-->rack preamp-->rack delay-->rack reverb --> power amp

all in series.

+2

 

[Anonymous]

I'm VERY hapy with this rig.
For recording and most gigs, I send it direct to the desk, but very occasionally I use a power amp and speakers for very big gigs.
I would love to have the Voodoo Mods platinum mod done sometime next year.

 

[IamTheHuman]

Well, after doing some research a bit on things everyone talked about, I still want the engl midi tube pre (I can fix sterile, I can't fix sloppy). Now its the choice of good fx rack setups. The G-force/Gsystem setup is what is catching my eye the most. Anyone have extensive use with either of their programming methods? I also really dug that site that did custom switching options that was mentioned above, and will definitely be considering some of those options. As far as that torpedo thing went, I think that may be a bit too much money, and the audio examples they had were less than convincing to even drop $500 on it honestly. Anyone have any better examples of that item?

And finally, poweramps. The Fryette ones seem pretty popular, as well as mesa. Anyone here have some reasonable working knowledge of preamp sound characteristics? Maybe describe the sound of a few. Since I'll be getting a pre that some feel is sterile, I'll want something that is clear, but CAN warm it up if I want (I'll also be swapping out stock tubes in the pre for some lower gain/warmer preamp tubes, even if just one or two being swapped out).

 

[mightywarlock]

I was at Fryette today and they gave me a little tip on my 2902.
crank it up to like 3 o'clock...then lower the output of the preamp.
rather than the other way around.

says that makes it nice and beefy and punchy and warm.

And just get the G-force and be done with it already. programming is fairly easy if you understand blocks.

 

[verderacer]

Pictured it my refrigerator. I like this config as it held all my gear, it was easy to transport, ie; disconnect the cables from the back to the speaker cabs, unplug the power and midi cables, throw the cover over it and go.

ENGL is as ENGL does, my suggestion would be to email and communicate with them about what it is you expect and want...

In regards to power amps I would start looking at what your requirements. Preamps are a personal thing and it all depends on what your after and who else does, geez this list is way to long. If you look at my pic you will see that I have 2, well really one and its a Digitech, the other is actually a Randall RGT100HT that is used as a preamp. Currently I am using a Yamaha P2250 power amp, but the caps area staring to give out and I know the cost of repair is more than the value and near replacement. So I have been looking a several 100w power amps and I want to save on space, so a friend pointed me to Carvin and the DCM200L. Its smaller by 2 rack spaces and if I wanted to go with a W/D/W config I could easily do so just by adding another amp and save on space.


Pictured above the power amp is the GCX and at the time of this pic it was not being used, but it has been my main switcher for all my effects gear. Though you cannot see them in the pic the space at the bottom has been used for various old pedal effects. The GCX has been a very reliable piece of inexpensive gear. For controlling it all, I have a all access and simple channel switcher for the Randall.

Hope this helps.