Herbert or VH4 ???

[RedB4Black]

Not sure why people are recommending the Herbert because it's more "brootal" and heavy and aggressive when the guy is looking for something for R&B and funk

What one do you prefer and why ?

Feel free to add any other Diezel to the discussion.

See post #3

 

[glpg80]

I play everything....I just play funk and R&B the most.
There really is something special about the sound of a Herbert.

Who was that artist that was on rig talk many years ago that used one as his main amplifier for R&B/Funk/Jazz/Metal/etc? Had his own CDs and everything?

Not sure

Actually the clean channel on the Herbert is awesome for funk.

That's why I mentioned the mk II herbert over the mk I for the fixed clean channel volume/headroom thing. Other changes were made as well I think but I don't want to say for sure as my memory is failing.

 

[EvilBatman]

Andy Wood gets all kinds of great tones with his Herbert.

Many a year ago, I had a chance to play a VH4 and it ended up being one of the biggest gear surprises I've ever had because quite frankly, I didn't really like it. There was nothing wrong with it, but it just didn't tickle my fancy. I kind of wrote Diezel amps off after that until I played a Herbert. That amp is pure monster.

I've since had the opportunity to play a Herbert and VH4 again a few times. I have indeed warmed more to the VH4 over time, but it still doesn't hit my spot exactly. The Herbert though, is great. I don't know if it would crack my top 5 amps, but it's top 10 for certain. More versatile than it is given credit for.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Herbert for R & B
Riffs & Brootz

 

[stephen sawall]

I play everything....I just play funk and R&B the most.
There really is something special about the sound of a Herbert.

Who was that artist that was on rig talk many years ago that used one as his main amplifier for R&B/Funk/Jazz/Metal/etc? Had his own CDs and everything?

Not sure

Actually the clean channel on the Herbert is awesome for funk.

That's why I mentioned the mk II herbert over the mk I for the fixed clean channel volume/headroom thing. Other changes were made as well I think but I don't want to say for sure as my memory is failing.

I have mostly played on the Mark II.
When playing on a VH4 I find I pretty much only use channel 3.
I have never seen a D-Moll.... But have played on the Einstein plenty. Same with the Hagen...never seen one.

 

[Meeotch]

I read in some youtube comments that the transformers on the Herbert Mark I are the better of the two. It could just be an opinion, but it would be interesting to hear someone chime in on that comparison. It is my understanding that they were changed in the MK II to produce less heat. I also understand the Ch.1 headroom was increased on the MK II, but not sure if that is related to the new transformers.

 

[glpg80]

I read in some youtube comments that the transformers on the Herbert Mark I are the better of the two. It could just be an opinion, but it would be interesting to hear someone chime in on that comparison. It is my understanding that they were changed in the MK II to produce less heat. I also understand the Ch.1 headroom was increased on the MK II, but not sure if that is related to the new transformers.

On that topic I remembered reading Peter describe MKI vs MKII, I found the thread and have quoted it below:

We use different transformers on the MK2 to avoid heat
and did changes on the clean channel input.

After retubing some MK1 versions last week I cannot
decide which version is my favourite.

I do improvements because that´s a techs never
ending search getting the "perfect" version.
Customers may have a different point of view.

Don´t get rid off your MK1 version.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

I read in some youtube comments that the transformers on the Herbert Mark I are the better of the two. It could just be an opinion, but it would be interesting to hear someone chime in on that comparison. It is my understanding that they were changed in the MK II to produce less heat. I also understand the Ch.1 headroom was increased on the MK II, but not sure if that is related to the new transformers.

I've owned both... both MKI/MKII are great amps and both sound like a Herbert. The MKII transformers are bigger and do weigh a bit more. Zero issues with either one.

 

[Meeotch]

Cool, and thanks for quoting Peter. I own the MK I and it definitely slays. I was second guessing whether I should flip it for a MK II but I'm now at peace on the subject matter

 

[Ventura]

I play everything....I just play funk and R&B the most.
There really is something special about the sound of a Herbert.

Cleans are cleaner and more crystal like on the Herb.
VH4 kicks its ass for the thump.
Herbert is known for the mid-cut, which doesn't actually cut well in a live setting.
Herbert has a lot of low-end, which doesn't bode well with the bassist on stage.
VH4 has piano cleans and does a crunch that'd make Angus Young grow a rubbery one.
They are both amazing amps. I prefer to pay for 4 tubes rather than 6 when I need to re-bottle the head

I know who you are. You know who I am. Ping me Holmes. We'll talk.

 

[stephen sawall]

Ventura you have a Hagen also don't you ?

How would you describe it against the others ? Anyone can reply.

 

[spguitar]

I had Herbert for about 8 years now and just sold it on Reverb. It was a great head but when i got my 1998 VH4 last year i was blown away. I rented a VH4 before in Los Angeles and it sounded so bad. Maybe they had it biased wrong or something because it was super low gain overall until CH4. That put me off until i saw Billy Corgan selling some of his. Took a leap because i remembered his sounded intense in person back in 2000. Wise decision. It can do it all. Herbert's cleans are more sparkly but the "feel" of the VH4's midrange is just amazing. I love both heads but i'll stick with the VH4 from now on.

 

[rickenbacker198]

I love both of them.
Remember these opinions are of my amps , setup the way I like each one.
6L6 - VH4
EL34 - Herbert
Spguitar is right on the money with his thoughts.
The main difference is in the mids.

Both are amazing creations , IMHO neither is better or deeper or more versatile than the other.
They are just different.

Both feel very opposite to play.
The VH4 feels almost like a clean amp no matter how much gain you have going.
No forgiveness at all.
Herbert has a looser (compared to VH4) more forgiving feel.

In the mids,
The VH4 doesn’t sit too far from the classic Marshall “krang” or roar or whatever you want to call it.
Herbert’s mids are harder sounding, no matter where you put the eq or mid cut.
I find if I crank the mids on Herbert it becomes unpleasant, I think that’s why many say it’s got scooped mids, not so with the VH4, crank away it never gets hard or unpleasant sounding.

As for my choice,
If I wanted an amp just for home and recording it would be Herbert, I never get tired of fooling with that amp. It has a more unique voice and a fun feel to it.
It also takes pedals better than the VH4.

If it was to play out it would be without a doubt the VH4.
The way it cuts with that classic chewy grind is still unequaled.
Same for the lower gain / clean breakup stuff , cuts like a knife , and still drips with tone.
I find with any other amp it always a battle being buried or sticking out obnoxiously.
The VH4 is so easy to set.

Hope that’s clear

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Ventura you have a Hagen also don't you ?

How would you describe it against the others ? Anyone can reply.

Hagen was my favorite of the Big boys in the line.

More modern than vh4 in voicing, more open ragged mids than ultra refined herbert.

Im not sure what id recommend for YOU though.

 

[GtarLover]

Ventura you have a Hagen also don't you ?

How would you describe it against the others ? Anyone can reply.

Interesting that there's been a few threads comparing Diezel models lately
Much has already been said, basically two great choice here.

Personally, I kept my Herbert and my Hagen...Let the VH4 go, don't miss it (much).
Herbert's clean and channel 2 with the -/+ switch has A LOT of luscious tones. Even the mid-cut can do well here. You're not trying to compete with bass or drums for low end with R&B/Funk, rather the mid-cut, gently used and adjusted well, can be another tool for your tonal palette. I think many ROCK guys can get lost using Herbert's mid-cut feature in the hard rock/ heavy metal setting...however that's not you, if I understand correctly. So, that concern may not apply in the same way. I think mid-cut is a great feature, especially with the level and intensity controls. Just needs to be adjusted well.

All that said, AND, you may want to look into the Hagen as well. 4 channels and a more "open" sound than the VH4.
Thing is, I REALLY like Hagen's clean channel!! Seriously great. Herbert's clean is also wonderful, yet doesn't have a gain control. While it's not an issue necessarily, the Hagen offers something with more variety there. I think for the R&B/Funk you may want to explore it. Channel 2 is also excellent on the Hagen, with a decent range of lower/mid gain tones. You certainly don't need the amount of gain channel 4 is capable of, yet that applies to both the VH4 and the Hagen, and Herbert's channel 3 too, I suspect.
Although, it's nice to have the option. Never hurts to know you could tear faces off if you needed to

Diezel's are just great amps and certainly can do the heavy thing, no DOUBT, but that's NOT all they are capable of by any means...and if you are more interested in cleans and lower/mid gain tones, I think you owe it to yourself to look into the Hagen as well as the VH4 and Herbert. These are all KILLER amplifiers.

No matter what you choose, you'll have a Diezel and that's a GOOD thing

 

[Ventura]

There was a poll on here recently about a few amps, SLO - BE100 - Hagen....

I'd mentioned the same thing I'd mentioned about the Hagen years ago over in the Diezel forum. It's my fave amp out of the bunch. Not everyone will agree and that's totally okay - everyone's ears expect something different - everyone's fingers do something different... I love the Hagen's "greasiness", I believe I used that term for the first descriptor of the Hagen years ago - it's a player's amp, it's grindier, tight but looser feeling, not sterile, playful, it's got swing built into it - man - hard to describe. Does a really good version of the VH4's Ch.3 but it's a little more open and raunchier.

Hagen is a beast - and very special sounding.

This is all I can say. And ya, it's in the stable still - it's a fun fucking amp, and has tonnes of that Diezel DNA oozing out of it.

Like I said man, ping me on FB or text me and we'll line up a call or something - but the Hagen to me is a fun, addictive, versatile amp that still retains and upholds ALL the Diezel goodness that we've come to know, love and respect from the TwoPeters!!

 

[stephen sawall]

Played on a VH4 today for awhile. I really need to play on a Hagen.

 

[pfapin05]

What one do you prefer and why ?

Feel free to add any other Diezel to the discussion.

Im a VH4 guy all the way, I like channels 1,2,and 3 better than the Herbert.