LP Freak
Well-known member
Amen
stratjacket
Well-known member
I watched that this morning, it was interesting, but I think it misses the point. I don't think it was Pro Tools, plugins and PC's that did it. I don't blame computers at all, to me, that's ridiculous. That's just tools, people did it by choice. I would blame the people who made the cookie cutter rinse and repeat songs.
Hasn't record companies wanted to clone popular artists, churn out the same bubble gum hits forever. Computers just gave them a better tool to do it.
Hasn't record companies wanted to clone popular artists, churn out the same bubble gum hits forever. Computers just gave them a better tool to do it.
DrewJD82
Well-known member
stratjacket":1emn4thq said:
Truth.
That grid in any DAW can be dangerous, too many people just HAVE to line up those transients. For years I'd tell my buddy not to fuck with my vocal tracks regarding that stuff, then I'd come in a few days later and see all the tracks lined up to the grid. That was actually a big part of the reason I got my own studio going in my house. Just got tired of other people being in control of what I was trying to get across and missing the point/mark. When I program drums not, a lot of times I'm sliding things before or after the grid, not even a cunt hair's worth, to try to create some human feel, then I'll go back and tweak each and every velocity. That actually takes more time than the programming does!
Inearthed
Well-known member
For every gridded, pitch corrected, and edited as hell radio friendly hit that is assembled a band/musician with a shoe string budget is able to afford the ability to put their songs together for a reasonable sounding demo / album and get them up on the internet for anyone in the world to listen to or purchase directly from that musician/band.
Sure, it has its downsides but shit... I’ll gladly have cookie cutter radio music out there that I’ll never listen to or purchase to have the ability to hear bands that I’d never have had the chance to hear
Sure, it has its downsides but shit... I’ll gladly have cookie cutter radio music out there that I’ll never listen to or purchase to have the ability to hear bands that I’d never have had the chance to hear
lespaul6
Well-known member
If you were born in the 90's you almost have no historical notion of what rock music is.. unless you care enough to learn and research. Most, unfortunately, just listen to what they are told to listen to: rap/ hip hop
Rock is dead and what is left has moved underground
It still lives in Europe in some places
Rock is dead and what is left has moved underground
It still lives in Europe in some places
Spaceboy
Well-known member
Clear Channel ruined rock music, not Pro Tools.
skullfxr
Well-known member
I have always been a part of the underground. I will always be. I was born in 90,but I remember the day my cousin exposed me to Trendkill the day it came out. Then I was hooked. Still down. Mainstream rock may very well be dead, but the good stuff is out there. I listen to a lot of down, COC, crowbar, EHG, Pantera, super joint, sabbath, HELLYEAH, sleep, electric wizard, high on fire, acid bath, sound garden, STP, and that vein of stuff. While some of that is old news, the underground is still raging IF you know where to look. It takes effort to find good music. It's not fed to you on the radio, you have to look for it. Seek it and it's there.
1
155
Well-known member
they were lining shit up in the 60's, but yeah its too easy for untalented people now,..
romanianreaper
Well-known member
I think the thing that changed was "formula" and a lot of fair weather fans and clueless people. I'll use Nickelback as an example. There are a lot of "fans" out there of rock and metal that want to hear a catchy line and a hook. Did Motorhead give a crap about a hit when they were doing "Bomber" or "Overkill"? I mean think about the tons of bands a lot of us listened to. Sure, they wanted to be popular and be on the radio, etc. but in a bunch of cases they were able to somewhat do it on their terms, within reason.
Like I said before, listen to the latest Def Leppard, Tesla, or Whitesnake. It has this pop sheen to it and alot of the guitars are sucked out of the mix. I just don't get it.
Like I said before, listen to the latest Def Leppard, Tesla, or Whitesnake. It has this pop sheen to it and alot of the guitars are sucked out of the mix. I just don't get it.
stratjacket
Well-known member
I don't think rock and metal is dead, it's right where it's pretty much always been and probably as popular now as it ever has been. Let's not kid ourselves about the old days and think hard rock ruled, etc...Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, pop has always been top of the charts.
There are tons of new bands and cool stuff out there to listen to, a never ending supply of cool music if you want it. Lately I've really been into Deathwhite, Khemmis, Powerwolf, Orden Ogan and others, these are all worth checking out if you don't want to hang onto yesterday. And Michael Romeo's album was one of the best I've heard in a long time. These bands will never be pop level success, but rock never had anyway.
There are tons of new bands and cool stuff out there to listen to, a never ending supply of cool music if you want it. Lately I've really been into Deathwhite, Khemmis, Powerwolf, Orden Ogan and others, these are all worth checking out if you don't want to hang onto yesterday. And Michael Romeo's album was one of the best I've heard in a long time. These bands will never be pop level success, but rock never had anyway.
controlled_voltage
Banned
Well-known member
In the nyc area we have WSOU on the radio - 89.5 that has been playing metal and hard rock for a long time, so I get to hear A LOT of metal new and old on a daily basis if i choose to.
Half of what gets played is "new" metal.
Some of it is good 10-15% shows actual imagination - [deafheaven for instance] but to me most of it really is awful, with the same machine gun double bass, some white guy screaming and yelling at me and the same scooped hi gain diezel amp sounds and usually a lame guitar solo if there is one.
Sometimes there is an audible bass line or synths, maybe a weird part in odd time but this is the exception and not the norm.
I am not exaggerating or being a twat when i say that 50-60% of what gets played fits this mold.
It is now the industry standard for heavy music and it sucks dead dog dick.
What i've noticed since PANTERA released CFH is that they set a new production standard with terry date.
It worked for them but them 1,000,001 other bands copped that production style and then started replacing the drums with samples.
Vinnie played all of his parts and they DID NOT replace his drums, they also tracked into a tape and then later on the RADAR system.
Since then as we all know home computers and cheap DAW set up are the norm.
So are toontrack drums and brickwalling mixes and waves plugins etc.
The end result is an incestuous boring trend where everything is sounding the same in the genre.
Then the dj will drop an old sabbath track, some clutch or an old priest or maiden track and BOOM all the sudden it's music again.
And it's a stark reminder of how variation and production differences up to about 1995 really made stuff more interesting to listen to.
YMMV
Half of what gets played is "new" metal.
Some of it is good 10-15% shows actual imagination - [deafheaven for instance] but to me most of it really is awful, with the same machine gun double bass, some white guy screaming and yelling at me and the same scooped hi gain diezel amp sounds and usually a lame guitar solo if there is one.
Sometimes there is an audible bass line or synths, maybe a weird part in odd time but this is the exception and not the norm.
I am not exaggerating or being a twat when i say that 50-60% of what gets played fits this mold.
It is now the industry standard for heavy music and it sucks dead dog dick.
What i've noticed since PANTERA released CFH is that they set a new production standard with terry date.
It worked for them but them 1,000,001 other bands copped that production style and then started replacing the drums with samples.
Vinnie played all of his parts and they DID NOT replace his drums, they also tracked into a tape and then later on the RADAR system.
Since then as we all know home computers and cheap DAW set up are the norm.
So are toontrack drums and brickwalling mixes and waves plugins etc.
The end result is an incestuous boring trend where everything is sounding the same in the genre.
Then the dj will drop an old sabbath track, some clutch or an old priest or maiden track and BOOM all the sudden it's music again.
And it's a stark reminder of how variation and production differences up to about 1995 really made stuff more interesting to listen to.
YMMV
I
indespise
Active member
Time alignment and samples have nothing to do with it. Some NES music (Contra, Castlevania, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, etc) kicked all kinds of ass and was literally beeps and bloops. Only people like us give a shit about production values beyond a basic level of quality. The industry pushed garbage for a long time, piracy dried up most of the money, and most importantly, there are just way more readily available ways to keep yourself very entertained these days. Music isn't the major cultural driver it used to be, kids stopped caring about MTV (which in turn stopped playing much music, even the homogenized dogshit, over a decade ago) a LONG time ago. There will always be those of us who are passionate about it, but I can't see us being any more than a niche anytime soon. How many of us initially got into music because of what you saw on MTV or heard on the radio, shitty as it may have been, way back? There was a lot more of it being pushed by big marketing dollars, which in turn left more scraps for the less poppy stuff that so many of us got a taste of- even a diluted one- through those mainstream channels. the big dogs have moved onto more profitable pastures.
Ventura
Well-known member
Haven't seen the vid yet but I feel the power and ease-to-record on the fly now, large in part to technology (DAWs, modellers, etc), have been a great resource for musicians. True musicians will continue to gravitate to true playing. Where shit gets weird is the grid and cookie cutter add-water-makes-its-own-sauce (thanks FZ!) recipes for the shit played on the airwaves today. 90% of pop-music is written by 2 dudes - Martin & Gottwald. The recipe of familiarity. Simple. But that's for those who don't really "understand" or "appreciate" real music. Commercial sales make this music what it is - the monies in makes more shit come out, and the wheel keeps turning. Sadly.stratjacket":luczzlcm said:
And we call that "humanizing" the kit. And anyone who wants the human touch, NEEDS to do this to prevent their art from sounding surgical, clinical, cold and sterile. Sometimes it's good for hardcore industrial stuff, but there are always exceptions to any ruleRevDrucifer":luczzlcm said:
But you're right, it's the human nuances that give the music its life...the depth...the emotion. Overall though? Having the ability to get a kickass drummer, a great bassist, a small symphony, all the ambient background flavours I could possibly imagine, and all the venue effects I could ever fathom via software and a decent CPU, I'm happy with tech and music's marriage - for me. I'd be fucking livid if I went to see a kickass band I know just kills it out there "lip sync'ing" or layering to their live gig - that would piss me off to no end; but I haven't found too many (any, actually) of my fave bands or artists to do this - they still have pride in their craft.
Except heavy industrial metal
In their case, they're allowed to get weird.
I think one of the biggest problems facing society today is that, in the past, art - in our case MUSIC - was used to convey a message. It was angry, it was poetic, it was beautiful, it was agonizing, it was always - DANGEROUS!! It brought like-minded people together, it gave them mental fire, it was experimental much of the time and those experiments "gone wild" are legendary today. But now? Fuck. So much of this shit sounds the same - all genres - everything - so predictable. People ask me why I don't listen to much (if any) new stuff and it's because it sounds the same. Christ, throw me some Ween, some Zappa, some Hendrix, some Herbie Hancock, some Sabbath, Ramones, just give me loud, dangerous, and unstable music and I'm happy. Sure, all the aforementioned bands now are considered passé, but at the time, they were revolutionary because a) they didn't give a fuck, b) there was money to be made if you were different, but most importantly, c) the society and culture NEEDED a voice.
What's our voice now?? Facebook
Sorry for the ramble... But seriously, valid points in this thread and it's taken me a while to post this as new posts keep coming in.
Peace
Ventura
Well-known member
/ end threadromanianreaper":pwtvh1yp said:
Kapo_Polenton
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure "How computers ruined music" is just a tag line to get interest.. what he means is the tools used in computers and how easy they are to use is what has made everyone sound the same from tempo perfection right down to samples and auto tuning. You can even hear it on new material from old bands. I was listening to those 4 tunes that Motley Crue released to go with the release of the Dirt on Netflix and it was horrible how bad the production was. For one, Tommy has a feel to his playing that gets lost as soon as you quantize it all. Everything that was raw and cool about the Crue was instantly gone. Yeah they used to splice together tape and it is still ok to do it in your daw. The difference is that those spliced parts are never quantized. I recorded myself a few years back to click tracks. No matter what I did I was always getting slightly ahead or behind in spots on guitar and on drums when I played. I am convinced that if I could play guitar, bass, and drums at the same time, I would fall into a "natural" tempo. That's what is missing a lot now and the reason why none of it is exciting. I love listening to isolated guitar or drum tracks and hearing small mistakes that they just left in because the take was otherwise perfect. Also, there is little doubt that the rise of perfection in recorded music is what has allowed shit like Dragon Force to even exist. There's no way it gets played that clean live and usually sounds all over the place in spots for a reason. Long story short, I refuse to quantize and sample replace!
romanianreaper
Well-known member
Ventura":2wwa07qe said:
Yep, exactly! You know the bottom line with alot of these people is that they are trying too hard to be followers. People are looking to others to tell them what is "in", what they should listen to, who is the next big thing, etc.
My friends will come to work and they all ask the same thing. "Hey, did you see the new Game of Thrones last night?". "Did you watch that movie everyone is talking about?". This isn't a slam on Game of Thrones because I've never watched it before and I'm sure I'd like it. The problem is that I'm too busy playing guitar, reading, watching music documentaries, etc. to just do what everyone else is doing.
The more everyone likes something, the more I run away these days. When I see someone at a store or somewhere that looks real and different, I want to go run up to them and actually hug them because it is like I found someone who isn't a robot. LOL
IHateRap
Well-known member
Blame people.
I'd imagine Beat Detective and Autotune could be really helpful in fixing one or two "take-ruining" mistakes or whatever.....but not the whole performance. I guess it would come down to distinguishing between something that ruins a take and something that's "off" but sounds cool or has personality.
I'd imagine Beat Detective and Autotune could be really helpful in fixing one or two "take-ruining" mistakes or whatever.....but not the whole performance. I guess it would come down to distinguishing between something that ruins a take and something that's "off" but sounds cool or has personality.
crwnedblasphemy
Well-known member
I like all Rick's videos. Grid system did help in fixing and cut/paste choruses/drums/etc.
I feel though, you can have a tight backing, and if you slur the vocals, or draw them out over counts like say Layne Staley sang, your ear noticeable hears that it's not predominantly on the 1, and it sounds better. Zeppelin/Plant did the same style.
Where the grid helped most was speed up punching....if you can click back and have auto punch instead of rewinding the Reel, it was way faster in the studio. Simple economics. Saves time and money.
My first album was recorded on 2" reel. 24 track. Took a long time as we were thrash. But it sounds damn good. that was in 98. To be honest, I believe we didn't even use a click for our drummer, maybe he did? But we had a lot of changes, so I don't recall ever setting up multiple time clicks.
I feel the loudness war is more to blame...cuz you can find sludge/stoner metal all day that don't use industry standard ways.
I feel though, you can have a tight backing, and if you slur the vocals, or draw them out over counts like say Layne Staley sang, your ear noticeable hears that it's not predominantly on the 1, and it sounds better. Zeppelin/Plant did the same style.
Where the grid helped most was speed up punching....if you can click back and have auto punch instead of rewinding the Reel, it was way faster in the studio. Simple economics. Saves time and money.
My first album was recorded on 2" reel. 24 track. Took a long time as we were thrash. But it sounds damn good. that was in 98. To be honest, I believe we didn't even use a click for our drummer, maybe he did? But we had a lot of changes, so I don't recall ever setting up multiple time clicks.
I feel the loudness war is more to blame...cuz you can find sludge/stoner metal all day that don't use industry standard ways.
stratjacket
Well-known member
crwnedblasphemy":2rs6os8j said:
Yeah, that's a great point. I had forgotten about that one, but that definitely put everything on 11 removed virtually all dynamics. I admit that I like the loud in your face guitars though, but variety is the spice of life.
Ventura
Well-known member
Interesting, there was some thread about GoT today and I said I have never watched it and immediately had to defend WHY. My argument was - I'd prefer to think music, study music, play music and listen to music. Not shows or movies unless it's 1am and I can't sleep. But otherwise? Free time = guitar or music related pursuits.romanianreaper":1gao3t7w said:
And again I agree. This is the formulaic algorithm for "sales". If everyone's loving it - it's likely because it's familiar, and I don't like familiar. I like unpredictable. And that goes for people's style and character too - if you're a drone bee, the likelihood of me digging ya is slim... I like the odd balls; the one's that have the chutzpah to be different; the ones without "fear", the edgy cats. I'm one myself - I can't be anything but. So it goes.romanianreaper":1gao3t7w said:
But music?? Ya, bend the rules, be good enough to encompass and embrace playing errors and run with them to your advantage and uniqueness. When I get melodies in my head or am playing around and suddenly come across some cool notes and sounds, I start by putting them together and then adding atonal accents here and there to give it life and distinction. Did some recording yesterday and was playing a new tune I'm working on and within the 3rd intro bit I pull into an atonal ring; my guy at the desk lifted his had and said "COOL, I wasn't expecting THAT!!". And THAT is the whole point of putting it there
