How Do You...

[IndyWS6]

Get the sound from your head, or a CD, or your iPod --> out of your rig? For example, if you hear something that you really like and want to emulate it, be it with a digital effect processor (Axe, Eleven, Digi, etc.) or an amp/cab/combo setup, what steps do you take? Do you have a process that you follow to dial it in?

For example, I love the tone of Dave Sabo's lead guitar part in "18 and Life" (say what you will about the song...). That push-pull, tubes on edge, feedback just around the corner, wheeziness makes me smile. The same goes for the last 20 seconds of the solo for "Man in the Box", but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to approximate either one of them. I've come to the conclusion that I suck at duplicating tone - and it frustrates the hell out of me!

<Disclaimer>: I know that "tone is in the fingers", "tone is in the magic Plexi that Phil (in the) Blank owns" and "tone is bestowed upon gifted people at birth". I'm just trying to understand how normal-fingered, non-magic Plexi owning, gift lacking guitar players dial-in a sound they heard and want to duplicate.

Let the discussion begin

 

[Ancient Alien]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

 

[LP Freak]

I'd say your estimate is a bit off. There is a percentage you can credit an engineer with but definately not 80%.

 

[IndyWS6]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

The question is, how do you do it? Assuming that you have the skills to play the lick/line/chord, what process do you use to duplicate a given tone?

 

[Blackie08]

Get the sound from your head, or a CD, or your iPod --> out of your rig? For example, if you hear something that you really like and want to emulate it, be it with a digital effect processor (Axe, Eleven, Digi, etc.) or an amp/cab/combo setup, what steps do you take? Do you have a process that you follow to dial it in?

For example, I love the tone of Dave Sabo's lead guitar part in "18 and Life" (say what you will about the song...). That push-pull, tubes on edge, feedback just around the corner, wheeziness makes me smile. The same goes for the last 20 seconds of the solo for "Man in the Box", but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to approximate either one of them. I've come to the conclusion that I suck at duplicating tone - and it frustrates the hell out of me!

<Disclaimer>: I know that "tone is in the fingers", "tone is in the magic Plexi that Phil (in the) Blank owns" and "tone is bestowed upon gifted people at birth". I'm just trying to understand how normal-fingered, non-magic Plexi owning, gift lacking guitar players dial-in a sound they heard and want to duplicate.

Let the discussion begin

I love that song and Sabo's tone in it. It's not really that hard IMO. Bridge Humbucker in a strat----> Jose Mod PLexi---> reverb+delay

That should be it

 

[Blackie08]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

The question is, how do you do it? Assuming that you have the skills to play the lick/line/chord, what process do you use to duplicate a given tone?

Get some good recording gear find a good backing track with the vocals and mix it til it sounds like the actual song

 

[Ancient Alien]

If you ever get the chance to get into a studio while a big name is recording.
Take a listen to what the raw track sounds like.
Then listen to how it sits in the mix after the engineer mixes it.
It is night and day.
I hear hundreds of clips of amps, guitars by themselves.
Most would not fit in the mix for a song.
Recording guitar for a song and trying to capture a sound are completely different animals by themselves.
YMMV

 

[Ancient Alien]

Just as an example.
Many people try to capture the elusive "Brown" sound of EVH.
The best efforts I've ever heard were not done by modded amps, effects and such.
It was a hot humbucker on a super strat plugged directly into a vintage Plexi cranked into a GB loaded 4x12.
The exact same thing EVH used.
Add his feel and touch and you have that sound.

 

[IndyWS6]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

The question is, how do you do it? Assuming that you have the skills to play the lick/line/chord, what process do you use to duplicate a given tone?

Get some good recording gear find a good backing track with the vocals and mix it til it sounds like the actual song

That's my difficulty... I have decent gear (assorted guitars, Eleven Rack, H&K Switchblade, reasonably good 4x12 cab, multiple pedals and outboard effects, etc.) but I still can't seem to figure out how to dial-in a given sound. For example, I can get what I think is a "good" Mesa Rec sound out of my H&K, but if I know a particular track used a Mesa, I doubt that I could get my gear to sound enough like the track to make that be the first thing you think of when you hear it. I'm just wondering what process is followed by the people that are successful in duplicating tone. Make sense?

Also, I guess I should be more specific - I'm thinking more about "live" playing, although the question would also apply for getting close when recording (granted, with additional flexibility available in the mixing phase...).

 

[Blackie08]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

The question is, how do you do it? Assuming that you have the skills to play the lick/line/chord, what process do you use to duplicate a given tone?

Get some good recording gear find a good backing track with the vocals and mix it til it sounds like the actual song

That's my difficulty... I have decent gear (assorted guitars, Eleven Rack, H&K Switchblade, reasonably good 4x12 cab, multiple pedals and outboard effects, etc.) but I still can't seem to figure out how to dial-in a given sound. For example, I can get what I think is a "good" Mesa Rec sound out of my H&K, but if I know a particular track used a Mesa, I doubt that I could get my gear to sound enough like the track to make that be the first thing you think of when you hear it. I'm just wondering what process is followed by the people that are successful in duplicating tone. Make sense?

Also, I guess I should be more specific - I'm thinking more about "live" playing, although the question would also apply for getting close when recording (granted, with additional flexibility available in the mixing phase...).

It's really hard to capture that recorded tone live IMO... just too many factors and all of those recorded tones have a lot of studio magic in them that you won't get live

 

[Sixtonoize]

For example, I love the tone of Dave Sabo's lead guitar part in "18 and Life" (say what you will about the song...). That push-pull, tubes on edge, feedback just around the corner, wheeziness makes me smile.:

I might be wrong, but I think that that tone came from an ADA MP-1 -> McIntosh SS power amp.
I've heard that the exact same rig was used on White Lion's Pride...it was Michael Wagener's go-to recording rig of that time period.

EDIT:

Here's a quote from the mas himself:

The setup for the guitar sound for the EXTREME sessions as well as the first SkidRow album and White Lion's "Pride" album (in most cases, not on all tracks) was a Furman PEQ-3 into an unmodified ADA MP-1 (version 1.0, still got it) going into a McIntosh transistor poweramps (2100) into an original Marshall cab with 4x G12H (30W). The mics were, if I remember it right: Fostex M11RP Ribbon, Countryman lavalier and possibly a SM57/58 going into John Hardy M-1s and from there via a mono buss into a UREI 530 EQ and a BBE 802 then to digital tape (Mitsubishi 32 tack)

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/512890-post3.html

 

[Tawlks]

I'd say your estimate is a bit off. There is a percentage you can credit an engineer with but definately not 80%.

Depends on the engeneer. Alot of (most) modern engeneers will mix, master and produce the crap out of it.

 

[Tawlks]

From what I've learnt, which is not alot. guitars when recorded are pretty much all mids, and sit in a mix when reccorded, no one uses the same settings live as they do reccorded anymore.

For many reasons, I don't bother trying to get someone's tone, I get in a the ballpark then tweak to what sounds good to my ears, even if I wanted to, i don't have the gear, drive, or ear to achieve someone elses tone perfectly.

The idiot rhythm guitarrist in my last band would insist he had the best tone because he'd listen to some KsE or Parkway Drive, and try and get the tone from the complete two guitars and bass, so no mids, full bass, full gain. it sounded horrendous in a mix and out, but he'd never change his settings, the sound guy at two of our gigs complained about how his rig sounded.

 

[IndyWS6]

Ancient Alien -
I would agree - recording and trying to capture a sound certainly are different animals. What I'd like to do is learn how to get better at duplicating a given tone from the people that are successful at it. My assumption is that, whether they realize it or not, they have a method or process that helps them arrive at the intended result. As far as the EVH "Brown" sound, I see your point. I guess the difficulty is trying to get as close as possible without the vintage Plexi. Assuming that you have an amp or effect processor capable of achieving the sound you want, how do you dial it in? Where do you start?

Blackie08 -
I'm living proof that capturing a given tone is hard live. What's frustrating is that others seem to be much better at it and I'm wondering how they get there. I'm not looking for perfection, but a convincing facsimile would be great

Sixtonoize -
I'm sure you're knowledge of what was used is far better than mine. But, I'm back to the question of how to get a convincing approximation - assuming that you have decent amps/effects at your disposal.

Thanks to all who are chiming in on this topic. Hopefully it will continue a while and spawn even more good info...

 

[Sixtonoize]

In my experience, the best way to get a great tone is to put it in a full-band mix.
Guitar amps were never really designed to sound great by themselves - you've got to have drums and bass guitar to fill out the rest of the sonic spectrum.

If you're jamming at home, I'd think that the best option is to download some backing tracks and jam over them.

And FWIW, I think that the quest for exactly duplicating a tone completely misses the point.
Great tone is great tone, and it doesn't matter if you sound exactly like Nuno/EVH/Snake/etc. or completely different.
Go and listen, really listen, to the tone on the first VH record. It's really not that amazing.
It's kind of dry and nasal.

What makes it magic (and spawned 30+ years of imitators) is the playing and the drums and bass that back it up.

 

[Gainfreak]

The best path to take (and I have done this) is to find out what gear was used to create the original tone and start there.

in this case it was an ADA-mp1 and a furman PQ3 parametric EQ. I can hear on the recording that the sound used for the lead was definitely heavily Equed.

Id also be as bold to tell you that any decent preamp with a parametric EQ should get you in the ball park. As to what freequencies to use is where you will need to experiment or I if you savy with PC's there's software that you can use that will narrow down the freeqencies but that can be overkill for some people.

 

[LP Freak]

I can tell you what alot of guys tend to do is run too much gain. It doesn't always need to be on "10". That's great for bedroom jamming, but for a studio or live situation less is more.

 

[IndyWS6]

Sixtonoize -
I agree that putting the guitar in the mix makes a huge difference. I'd also agree that it's probably not realistic to expect to be able to exactly duplicate a given sound. But I'm the kind of person that, if I'm trying to cover a song, would prefer to get as close as possible. A pet peeve is when a guitar player in a band sounds EXACTLY the same for every song; whether it's SRV or Cinderella. It's as if they don't even try to make it sound like the original - and I don't want to be that guy. I'm not looking for perfection, but for the love of God, get a little closer... Recently, a friend had to keep me from threatening to beat a guitar player to death with the chorus pedal that he absolutely refused to turn off for an entire set. But I digress...

What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to get my guitar to sound as close to a given tone as possible. That way cover tunes sound like the songs they are supposed to and I can more easily emulate the guitar parts that really move me.

Once again, thanks for the input... By the way, where are some of your favorite sites to get backing tracks?


GainFreak -
"...as to what frequencies to use is where you need to experiment...". That's my weakness - I'm never quite sure which way to head with the tone controls. That is especially true on amps where the controls are very interactive. With something like my Eleven Rack, the problem is even worse. I can put all the pieces together to get something that sounds good, but I can never seem to get a rig to sound like a given guitar part.


LPFreak -
I would certainly agree. I tend to go with more gain to get the dynamics I want at a lower volume for bedroom jamming and then back it off when I turn it up...

 

[Gainfreak]

Sixtonoize -
I agree that putting the guitar in the mix makes a huge difference. I'd also agree that it's probably not realistic to expect to be able to exactly duplicate a given sound. But I'm the kind of person that, if I'm trying to cover a song, would prefer to get as close as possible. A pet peeve is when a guitar player in a band sounds EXACTLY the same for every song; whether it's SRV or Cinderella. It's as if they don't even try to make it sound like the original - and I don't want to be that guy. I'm not looking for perfection, but for the love of God, get a little closer... Recently, a friend had to keep me from threatening to beat a guitar player to death with the chorus pedal that he absolutely refused to turn off for an entire set. But I digress...

What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to get my guitar to sound as close to a given tone as possible. That way cover tunes sound like the songs they are supposed to and I can more easily emulate the guitar parts that really move me.

Once again, thanks for the input... By the way, where are some of your favorite sites to get backing tracks?


GainFreak -
"...as to what frequencies to use is where you need to experiment...". That's my weakness - I'm never quite sure which way to head with the tone controls. That is especially true on amps where the controls are very interactive. With something like my Eleven Rack, the problem is even worse. I can put all the pieces together to get something that sounds good, but I can never seem to get a rig to sound like a given guitar part.


LPFreak -
I would certainly agree. I tend to go with more gain to get the dynamics I want at a lower volume for bedroom jamming and then back it off when I turn it up...

Start with 800 to 1k on a parametric EQ in the 11 rack a lot of the 80's tones were in that region. 800hz will give you Ratts first album tone / Boston vibe and as you move towards 1k you will hear what it does to the sound.

 

[IndyWS6]

Sixtonoize -
I agree that putting the guitar in the mix makes a huge difference. I'd also agree that it's probably not realistic to expect to be able to exactly duplicate a given sound. But I'm the kind of person that, if I'm trying to cover a song, would prefer to get as close as possible. A pet peeve is when a guitar player in a band sounds EXACTLY the same for every song; whether it's SRV or Cinderella. It's as if they don't even try to make it sound like the original - and I don't want to be that guy. I'm not looking for perfection, but for the love of God, get a little closer... Recently, a friend had to keep me from threatening to beat a guitar player to death with the chorus pedal that he absolutely refused to turn off for an entire set. But I digress...

What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to get my guitar to sound as close to a given tone as possible. That way cover tunes sound like the songs they are supposed to and I can more easily emulate the guitar parts that really move me.

Once again, thanks for the input... By the way, where are some of your favorite sites to get backing tracks?


GainFreak -
"...as to what frequencies to use is where you need to experiment...". That's my weakness - I'm never quite sure which way to head with the tone controls. That is especially true on amps where the controls are very interactive. With something like my Eleven Rack, the problem is even worse. I can put all the pieces together to get something that sounds good, but I can never seem to get a rig to sound like a given guitar part.


LPFreak -
I would certainly agree. I tend to go with more gain to get the dynamics I want at a lower volume for bedroom jamming and then back it off when I turn it up...

Start with 800 to 1k on a parametric EQ in the 11 rack a lot of the 80's tones were in that region. 800hz will give you Ratts first album tone / Boston vibe and as you move towards 1k you will hear what it does to the sound.

Cool - thanks for the information. I'll give that a shot and see how it works...