How Do You...

[rsm]

That's where I was heading with my fuzz example. Knowing what equipment is used or being able to discern a JTM from a Plexi, Vox from a Hiwatt or types of fuzz, preamp gain vs power gain, etc., will get you in the ballpark for a starting point. But understanding how your gear makes / shapes tone is also key, once you are in the ballpark IMO. If you have too many pieces of gear, it may be worth isolating one, say the 11R. Maybe find an easier tone example to replicate, even if it's one you don't really like? Some Fender tweed or blackface clean no reverb with a tele for example? Get that sound using your 11R, then move up to more complex layered tones...(yes, clean tones can be rich and complex, but in terms of dial-in I find it easier as I'm not dealing with additional variables such as effects. YMMV)

FWIW, I frequently tweak my ToneLab LE when I get it out, even if it sounds good, my ears hear it different or something, so I tweak. When I haven't used it in awhile, it takes me time to get accustomed to it again after my tube amps, so I hold off tweaking (most of the time) untiil my ears adjust (a few hours or a couple of days). Having a few tube amps to AB with my ToneLab has helped immensely. So having an isolated reference tone makes it much easier.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Couple of things.

1) When you listen to studio tracks, there are usually more than one guitar track, with different eq settings, and occasionally different amps. The mix of these is what gives a "big sound". So unless your are running several amps, it can be hard to recreate a studio sound. Most of us get close and are happy with that.

2) Don't sit right next to your amp. Get up, walk around, and listen to it from several vantage points. It will sound different from all these places.

3) Get as close to the original gear as you can. Don't try and emmulate Slash's sound with a Strat and a Fender amp. And conversely, don't try and get SRV's sound with a Les Paul and a dual rec.

4) Remember, you are not hearing all the frequency's he has dialed in, due to the rest of the band (bass, drums, etc...) duplicating the frequencies. The engineer that mixes and masters the recoding balances these out, so it sounds even.

 

[jonescrusher]

A good eq in your fx loop will help.

 

[JakeAC5253]

I'd estimate that 20% is the player, amp and guitar.
The other 80% is the engineer and producer in the studio.

Definitely not in my experience. An engineer can only do so much with what he has been given. There is no 'easy button' or 'studio magic' only recording experience and good judgment with good ears attached. Here's how it goes in my book.

25% The player (Tone is in the hands)
45% The gear (Imagine trying to record a modern heavy metal tone with an open back cab. Yupp, not going to happen)
30% The Engineer (To capture the sound in a pleasing way and fit it into the mix)

That is also how I approach my playing/recording/mixing. Get the best capture possible and never record something knowing that I will have to EQ or alter it down the line.

 

[JakeAC5253]

And therein lies the rub What's the best way to start from a clean slate and zero in on a given tone objective? Hell, the effort frustrates me to the point that I'd (almost) be willing to give someone my rig and pay them to program a patch for everything I want to copy. Yeah, I know that sounds lazy. I just get fed up easily when I can't dial-in what I want...

It's called reamping. Take DI's of your stuff and I'll track your guitar parts. PM if you are interested

 

[IndyWS6]

And therein lies the rub What's the best way to start from a clean slate and zero in on a given tone objective? Hell, the effort frustrates me to the point that I'd (almost) be willing to give someone my rig and pay them to program a patch for everything I want to copy. Yeah, I know that sounds lazy. I just get fed up easily when I can't dial-in what I want...

It's called reamping. Take DI's of your stuff and I'll track your guitar parts. PM if you are interested

Greetings...
I appreciate the offer (and I understand the concept of reamping, although I haven't yet done it with my Eleven Rack), but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to dial-in a specific sound, with the equipment I have, for use while playing live. As an example, if I want to cover a Skid Row song, how do I get my rig to sound reasonably like Dave Sabo's guitar part? I realize that you need decent gear and that a JC120 is not going to sound like a cranked Plexi, but what is the best approach to go from a clean slate on a capable rig to a final sound that approximates a desired tone? Does that explanation make sense?

I apologize if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to do and I certainly appreciate the suggestions and input...

 

[Gainfreak]

And therein lies the rub What's the best way to start from a clean slate and zero in on a given tone objective? Hell, the effort frustrates me to the point that I'd (almost) be willing to give someone my rig and pay them to program a patch for everything I want to copy. Yeah, I know that sounds lazy. I just get fed up easily when I can't dial-in what I want...

It's called reamping. Take DI's of your stuff and I'll track your guitar parts. PM if you are interested

Greetings...
I appreciate the offer (and I understand the concept of reamping, although I haven't yet done it with my Eleven Rack), but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to dial-in a specific sound, with the equipment I have, for use while playing live. As an example, if I want to cover a Skid Row song, how do I get my rig to sound reasonably like Dave Sabo's guitar part? I realize that you need decent gear and that a JC120 is not going to sound like a cranked Plexi, but what is the best approach to go from a clean slate on a capable rig to a final sound that approximates a desired tone? Does that explanation make sense?

I apologize if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to do and I certainly appreciate the suggestions and input...

Sit down with the 11 rack and start out with an amp model that has some gain to it and Slap an EQ into the patch. Turn on a Skid Row CD and keep turning the EQ knobs on the 11 rack patch until it sounds similar. That's where you should start.

 

[squealie]

The setup for the guitar sound for the EXTREME sessions as well as the first SkidRow album and White Lion's "Pride" album (in most cases, not on all tracks) was a Furman PEQ-3 into an unmodified ADA MP-1 (version 1.0, still got it) going into a McIntosh transistor poweramps (2100) into an original Marshall cab with 4x G12H (30W). The mics were, if I remember it right: Fostex M11RP Ribbon, Countryman lavalier and possibly a SM57/58 going into John Hardy M-1s and from there via a mono buss into a UREI 530 EQ and a BBE 802 then to digital tape (Mitsubishi 32 tack)

I'm sorta confused as to how guys can read a quote like this, and then dismiss the 'tone is in the fingers' aspect. OK, same rig, same producer/engineer, 4 wildly different tones.

Heck, even between Sabo and Hill the difference is HUGE. And they probably just passed b/f the guitar cable going to that rig. Hill does the main solo in 18 and life btw. I ADORE his tone on that record, and the next one, while Snakes solo tone sorta grates on me.

I dunno, just rambling.

 

[IndyWS6]

And therein lies the rub What's the best way to start from a clean slate and zero in on a given tone objective? Hell, the effort frustrates me to the point that I'd (almost) be willing to give someone my rig and pay them to program a patch for everything I want to copy. Yeah, I know that sounds lazy. I just get fed up easily when I can't dial-in what I want...

It's called reamping. Take DI's of your stuff and I'll track your guitar parts. PM if you are interested

Greetings...
I appreciate the offer (and I understand the concept of reamping, although I haven't yet done it with my Eleven Rack), but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to dial-in a specific sound, with the equipment I have, for use while playing live. As an example, if I want to cover a Skid Row song, how do I get my rig to sound reasonably like Dave Sabo's guitar part? I realize that you need decent gear and that a JC120 is not going to sound like a cranked Plexi, but what is the best approach to go from a clean slate on a capable rig to a final sound that approximates a desired tone? Does that explanation make sense?

I apologize if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to do and I certainly appreciate the suggestions and input...

Sit down with the 11 rack and start out with an amp model that has some gain to it and Slap an EQ into the patch. Turn on a Skid Row CD and keep turning the EQ knobs on the 11 rack patch until it sounds similar. That's where you should start.

Greetings...
I guess that's what I need to do. Pick a patch, slap it on the ass and twist the nipples until it sounds about right

 

[Jack Napalm]

Sit down with the 11 rack and start out with an amp model that has some gain to it and Slap an EQ into the patch. Turn on a Skid Row CD and keep turning the EQ knobs on the 11 rack patch until it sounds similar. That's where you should start.

+1 You shouldn't have a hard time with the 11R and getting some decent 80's rock tones out of it. The other guitarist my band uses one and he gets some really decent usable tones out of it. We do covers of a few 80's songs. If I remember right it has a model based on a JCM800. Start there. Adjust too taste.

 

[Gainfreak]

And therein lies the rub What's the best way to start from a clean slate and zero in on a given tone objective? Hell, the effort frustrates me to the point that I'd (almost) be willing to give someone my rig and pay them to program a patch for everything I want to copy. Yeah, I know that sounds lazy. I just get fed up easily when I can't dial-in what I want...

It's called reamping. Take DI's of your stuff and I'll track your guitar parts. PM if you are interested

Greetings...
I appreciate the offer (and I understand the concept of reamping, although I haven't yet done it with my Eleven Rack), but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. What I'm trying to do is learn the best way to dial-in a specific sound, with the equipment I have, for use while playing live. As an example, if I want to cover a Skid Row song, how do I get my rig to sound reasonably like Dave Sabo's guitar part? I realize that you need decent gear and that a JC120 is not going to sound like a cranked Plexi, but what is the best approach to go from a clean slate on a capable rig to a final sound that approximates a desired tone? Does that explanation make sense?

I apologize if I wasn't clear in what I was trying to do and I certainly appreciate the suggestions and input...

Sit down with the 11 rack and start out with an amp model that has some gain to it and Slap an EQ into the patch. Turn on a Skid Row CD and keep turning the EQ knobs on the 11 rack patch until it sounds similar. That's where you should start.

Greetings...
I guess that's what I need to do. Pick a patch, slap it on the ass and twist the nipples until it sounds about right

LMAO!! Yes, that's what you need to do!! Seriously though, The trick is in the EQ. If you get a preampy gain patch and screw around with EQ you should get extremely close.

 

[JakeAC5253]

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know much about the 11 Rack.

Are you running it into a cab and miking? Recording direct? I'm going to be a corksniffer here and say that I don't think many big budget studios use an 11 Rack to track the CD's you are listening to. As far as getting close, you need to use your ears, but I don't think it'll nail any one of them. ESPECIALLY if you are recording direct and not miking.

Sorry if that's not really good advice, but it's my opinion anyway, for whatever that's worth.

 

[IndyWS6]

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know much about the 11 Rack.

Are you running it into a cab and miking? Recording direct? I'm going to be a corksniffer here and say that I don't think many big budget studios use an 11 Rack to track the CD's you are listening to. As far as getting close, you need to use your ears, but I don't think it'll nail any one of them. ESPECIALLY if you are recording direct and not miking.

Sorry if that's not really good advice, but it's my opinion anyway, for whatever that's worth.

Greetings...
Your advice is as good as anyone else's. I'll listen to it all The thread got a little off track (don't they always? ), so let me recap...

What I'm trying to do is find an approach that I can use to duplicate any given tone, using the equipment that I have, for playing live. I'm primarily wondering how to do that using my Switchblade sitting on a Carvin 4x12 since that is my current "live" rig. I also have an old rack rig (Digitech GSP21 --> Midiverb III --> Peavey Classic 60 Tube amp) that I still occasionally use, so the approach would be applicable there, too. Essentially, I just wondered how people who are good at duplicating a certain sound dial-in their equipment to get there.

I have an Eleven Rack, but it is mounted in my studio desk and I don't plan on taking it out to play live. My assumption is that learning a process to dial-in a given tone should be the same for almost everything, including the Eleven Rack, even if the mechanics of getting there are different. For reference, the Eleven Rack is connected to my DAW running Pro Tools LE 8 and outputs through a Yamaha digital mixer into Alesis studio monitors...

 

[tonefinger]

Again, Most all the engineering I have done, the tone has been mostly in the finger. The enginneer can try to capture that or alter sightly, You might have to move the mics around to find the seet spots. Nothing like the response between the player and the amp. Thats why i didnt use much re-ampping. Record two trks with different mic placement. The slightly different tone and playing makes that thick guitar sound.

60% The player
15% The gear
25% The Engineer

 

[IndyWS6]

Again, Most all the engineering I have done, the tone has been mostly in the finger. The enginneer can try to capture that or alter sightly, You might have to move the mics around to find the seet spots. Nothing like the response between the player and the amp. Thats why i didnt use much re-ampping. Record two trks with different mic placement. The slightly different tone and playing makes that thick guitar sound.

60% The player
15% The gear
25% The Engineer

Thanks for the response... a ressurected thread

What I was looking for was how to duplicate a given tone. Let's say I'm going to cover a Ratt song - how do you take the equipment you are using and dial it in to sound as close to that tone as possible? I've been building a rack for live playing since I originally posted this, so it would be great to be able to dial-in a default Ratt, Tesla, Poison, etc tone and save them as presets. I've just never been very good at knowing what to tweak to get from a blank slate to a specific tone...

 

[LP Freak]

Again, Most all the engineering I have done, the tone has been mostly in the finger. The enginneer can try to capture that or alter sightly, You might have to move the mics around to find the seet spots. Nothing like the response between the player and the amp. Thats why i didnt use much re-ampping. Record two trks with different mic placement. The slightly different tone and playing makes that thick guitar sound.

60% The player
15% The gear
25% The Engineer

Thanks for the response... a ressurected thread

What I was looking for was how to duplicate a given tone. Let's say I'm going to cover a Ratt song - how do you take the equipment you are using and dial it in to sound as close to that tone as possible? I've been building a rack for live playing since I originally posted this, so it would be great to be able to dial-in a default Ratt, Tesla, Poison, etc tone and save them as presets. I've just never been very good at knowing what to tweak to get from a blank slate to a specific tone...

The best advice I can give is trial and error. There's no one recipe for any tone.

I'd say first listen to see what type of PU sound it being used, single coil or humbucker. Next, how much gain do you hear? This is where alot of guys go wrong. Less is more in some cases. Next, how is the eq set? And finally, what effects are being used if any? Start there and see what you come up with.

 

[Gorehog]

i have this scenario i've been thinking about for awhile.kind of hard to explain.but i'll try.

guitarist in the studio.amp dialed in to players liking.gets the vibe,plays his parts perfectly.track is a keeper.hears the recorded sound and its different from what was heard live.

so the not good enuff sound gets fixed in mixing/mastering.by whatever means.hypothetical of course.

now the recording.mixing/mastering is done.

fans hear what amps were used during recording.then purchase amp bit can't get that exact sound out of guitar,pedal,amp.

i think alot of recorded guitar is sans effects(reverb,delay,pitchshift etc.)and producer may keep the sound raw.(ac/dc)

or add effects later(def leppard).

layer by layer.hrs put into the mix.

then we(the fans)buy equipment,effects processors to emulate the sound.)