How much difference does a good mic preamp make?

[TheMagicEight]

Using an Mbox right now. I feel like I should be getting great tones, but my recordings sound just a little flat and muffled. Do you think the culprit could be more the pre or the converter? Which preamp / converter would you recommend? Anyone prefer tube preamps when miking guitar? Or perhaps there's something obvious I'm overlooking?

 

[JTyson]

They make a huge difference, my UA LA610 changed everything for me when I got it. All the sudden all the mikes I had worked like I always thought they should, but never could nail the tones I heard others getting out of the same mikes. I also like Avalon tube pre's, but not all the pre's I like are tube. API makes some killer pre's that are SS
Lots of good stuff out there now, its a great time to get recording stuff, but at the same time, its a black hole for your wallet if your not very careful. They are as varied as the mikes you plug into them

 

[daveg62]

A mic pre will make a big difference especially when you start stacking up a lot of tracks. getting the best converters you can afford will also improve things but not quite as much as having a decent mic preamp. Problem is you really need to get up into the $1200+ new range to start experiencing the difference. Not saying you can't get good recordings on cheaper equipment, just that the quality starts to become more noticeable with the mid to higher end stuff. I have a couple of ap-1's, a manley, and an 8 channel audient pre and I've been through a slew of lower-end preamps and some are decent, but the better pre's are just nicer and easier to work with. Again, it depends a lot on how many tracks you plan on stacking and what you want to invest. When you're talking about mic preamps, just because it's tube does not mean it is better. In fact most of your better ones are not tube, totally different animal than guitar preamp circuits.

 

[mjtripper]

The pre is important but don't under estimate how much the mic choice and placement factors in as well. Moving the mic a little bit in front of a cab can really change how it sounds.

 

[lolzgreg]

Amazing tones can be had with a cheap mic preamp/converter such as an MBOX. I've heard great tones made with a Presonus Firebox. mjtripper is dead on. Play with mic placement, and be aware of the relativity of your tone to the things around it.

 

[TheMagicEight]

Thanks guys!

I've played around with mic placement quite a bit. Actually, I think the only thing I haven't played with is the preamp and converter so far. Tried different cabs, different speakers, different amp, guitar, pickup, etc. I really like the tone I'm getting, especially in the room, but it just doesn't pop out the way I'd like. Sounds a little flat instead of 3D, if that makes sense.

I think I'm going to build myself a 610 and see how it sounds then. Can't hurt, right?

 

[TheMagicEight]

How loud do you guys record guitar? For an amp that has a pretty heavily distorted preamp, will you also drive the power tubes into distortion? Or are you pretty far off that? I find in the room with my Rectifier, I really like the tone when the output tubes are distorting a little. Maybe it's just not translating to the recording....

 

[Tone Monster]

I'll say this, I've owned a Chandler TG-2 for a few years now and last year Black Lion Audio came out with a low priced API clone. I thought I could replace the Chandler, pocket a grand, and have awesome API pres. They were fucking horrible. Bloated sounding and unfocused. Not close at all. Fastest gear dump ever.

 

[Rødskjegg]

Ronan Chris Murphy has a nice roundup of three preamps, check the vid here.
Quite useful IMO if you're planning to buy a preamp.

 

[JTyson]

I'll say this, I've owned a Chandler TG-2 for a few years now and last year Black Lion Audio came out with a low priced API clone. I thought I could replace the Chandler, pocket a grand, and have awesome API pres. They were fucking horrible. Bloated sounding and unfocused. Not close at all. Fastest gear dump ever.

Thats whats so annoying in the recording world, everyone is making "clones" of stuff people know is great stuff for way less money and its not even close. API and Nueve are the biggest copied names in the industry. How do you wade through all the hype before you spend some coin?
There are forums for recording stuff too, but I see a lot of "because I got it, its really good" opinions in those too. Of course, there are honest opinions that tell of disappointments in products also, but there is a sea of stuff out there right now
That Chandler is badass from what I've heard

 

[fuzzyguitars]

i think mics make a bigger difference.

forget what you are hearing in the room.

listen through the monitors and eq to amp to where it sounds good on the monitors

if you are close micing then you dont hear the room anyways.

once you add a room mic then you may introduce all sorts of phase issues





but i will say that pre amps definitely have their own sound as well.

 

[TheMagicEight]

My chain is:

Gibson R9 --> WCR Godwood (though I've tried recently with a Duncan Distortion) --> Rectifier --> Rectifier 4x12 --> MD421 & SM57

For mic position, I've tried everything I can think of and seem to prefer on axis, 1in from cone, pretty much right on the grill. When I record, I'm in another room - somewhat isolated - listening through speakers with the amp head right next to me to make adjustments. Settings on the Rectifier are as follows:

Gain: noon
Bass: 9:30
Mids: 1:00
Treble: 2:00
Presence: full
Master: 10:00

Now I'd normally hate that much treble and highs, but I notice when I get into a little bit of power tube saturation, everything - to my ears - gets smoother and thicker. It sort of works; nothing sounds harsh, it just doesn't have the body I know I've gotten with high end gear. I've tried many different arrangements on the amp, and so far that's the best I've gotten. Anything glaringly wrong that you can see?

I've got a couple of other low end preamps. Think I'll try them out and post clips next week.

Thanks again!

 

[fluff191]

The pre is important but don't under estimate how much the mic choice and placement factors in as well. Moving the mic a little bit in front of a cab can really change how it sounds.

This.

I got some of my best tones with a $25 ART Tube MP preamp and a Shure SM57.

 

[Spaceboy]

I use an SM57 and a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 and get good results. I've been thinking about upgrading to a couple Golden Age Pre 73s and an Echo Audio converter though. Just to see how much of an improvement it is, since I've only dealt with low-end interfaces.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Here are a few questions I have.. I have a presonus firepod from a few years back. Doesn't do a spectacular job but does a good enough job. Never been totally psyched about my tone but other people tell me the guitar sounds good. So here is my question.. if i were to get a better pre and use the presonus as the converter, would I be losing anything? Is there any point?

For compression, are you implying to hold off on using compression to boost the overall volume of a recording so it fits better in a mix and saving it for things that really benefit from it? How do you know what volume your recordings should come out as? I always had problems with the overall volume being too low so i used compression to give it a kick.

 

[TheMagicEight]

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've got some ideas and thoughts (only have a second right now), but here's what I came up with just using a little post EQ. I don't hate it (though my ears aren't fresh), but definitely a long way to go....

Feedback appreciated!

 

[TheMagicEight]

Thanks for the detailed reply, I see a few area's of concern.

1. The sm57 and senn md421 are great mics. However they like to run "hot", meaning 60Db of pre-amp gain or more. This warms up the mic but exaggerates the proximity effect so be careful of placement towards bass heavy pickup locations.

2. I have a love hate relationship with V30's and Rectos. They sound great in a room but as James Lugo says it took him awhile to learn how record the combination properly. Lots of hiss,buzz,fizz,boom, etc can creep into the mix very easily.

3. Each recto I have owned like slightly different settings, but I find the orange channel is where the beef is., If i need more gain a clean boost or preamp drive can hit the amp harder. The red channel always sounded thin to me but great to mix both in double tracking. I always run the master pretty high to keep me honest with the gain settings. EQ tone stacks are in series. Meaning how you move the bass knob effects the mids and so on. They all work together. Think of it like a parametric eq on your DAW.

Preamp
Gain, This is your V1 preamp tube gain.
Bass 100hz +/- 10db with a pretty sharp center Q
Mids 1k center 20db of range that dips from 500hz-2 or 3Khz
Treb 5k center with 30db or gain

Poweramp
Channel Volume, This is your second and 3rd gain stages.They run higher voltages and sound better so I bumb this up!
Master volume I normally set around 50-60%.
Presence 6-8khz center with various Q values and gain sweeps.

Recording Tips:
1.A neat trick is to take your effects loop send as a DI track. Caution it will sound like shit and I don't recommend it for the mix.However, you can really get a intuitive feel for how your preamp reacts to your playing and settings.

2. Speaker cabs love Airspace. Mic it on the back porch if you can. The smaller the room the smaller it will sound is the rule of thumb. It takes 30ft for some wavelengths to complete a cycle. The speaker cab in a small room will try to compress the air inside the room. This positive pressure pushes back on the speakers causing what I call bedroom tone.
Its small, boxy, thin, you name it. You want big and loud there is no other way to get there. Turn it up.

3. I always have the guitar player in the same room as the amp and cab while tracking. Keeps everybody honest. Think of a guitar track as building a house. From the foundation to the roof. Think of tracks as snap shots of locations around the house. Take pictures of everything untill you complete a image of the completed house. A microphone is just a stupid diaphragm (same thing as a speaker but in reverse). It doesn't react like the human ear does. Plus it can only listen to a few things at a time unlike our ears are trained to listed to many things at once. Listen to an orchestra and count the various instruments to train your ears.

Sorry for the long response. I could go on for ages on this stuff.

Luke

Thanks so much Luke! I'll read everything you write, so absolutely no problem with a long response!

I like the tone I posted up an hour ago more than I dislike it, but still feel it's lacking some depth. The post EQ I applied was to bring up airy frequencies - about 10k. Then I took out about 3dB at 1k with a medium Q. Maybe with bass guitar added, much more careful playing, quad tracking and a good mix, I'd be getting pretty close.

After I did that, I recorded with a cheap Behringer preamp I'd forgotten about. I liked it just a little bit more, actually, though it was maybe 95% the same. I think I hear enough of a difference that I'm interested in hearing a high quality preamp. I remember liking an M610 I used years ago quite a bit...probably hard to go wrong with that. Any recommendations? I know it's pretty subjective and dependent upon application, but any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[TheMagicEight]

Sounds like a recto isn't the right amp for your style. The lowend and mids just don't fit for that style by it self. You can Bring the mids forward and tighten up the lowend with a overdrive pedal. Also I heard some phase issues towards the end. Are you using the 3 to 1 rule for micing? Mostly I hear both guitars walking on the same sidewalk and bumping into each other.

Hmm...not sure on the phase issues (I'm only using one mic).

This Rectifier is slightly modded from a stock circuit to be a little tighter off the bat. However - and this is idiotic for what I'm trying to do, I know - my strings are old and pretty shot. I suspect that replacing them will make things quite a bit tighter and more to my liking. I'm going to throw a new set on before I record next time.

At least in the room, I really like stock, unboosted Rectifiers for this type of sound. However, I designed a mod for it that essentially works like a boost pedal. More upper mids, less mud, a little more gain. Definitely another thing to try.

The clip said it was a clone? If so its sounds like a recto to me.

Thanks! Next up is a 50W plexi clone that channel switches to a 2204...hopefully within a week that'll be up and running!

Another trick is when they double track vocals the second track has the treble rolled off. That way the articulation doesn't have to be spot on but the beef is there to back up the harmony. Meaning there is only so much space in the mix. The same technique can be used on guitar amps.

I hadn't thought of that. Will try!

 

[TheMagicEight]

One more.

This is with the Behringer. Better, but still with extra junk, I feel. Think I'm going to change strings and play around more.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Give sickwindsor his own sub forum! very helpful thanks. I like your approach to just saying what you do or offering suggestions. Brilliant idea with the complimenting vocal track having top rolled off to beefen up the track. Very smart. A question about 80's guitar tones. I know when i listen to Bon Jovi or Dokken I can hear more than one guitar blended. In something like Appetite for Destruction (love the production on this album), I really only hear a right and left rythm with punch ins for fills and solos. Is that my imagination or are the right and left channels actually the combination of 2 or 3 diff blends? Phasing is always a bitch and that is why i ask..