I don't understand the high end Pickup Market

  • Thread starter Thread starter Killcrop
  • Start date Start date
Killcrop said:
There is not more obvious fleecing than Fender bringing back these old ladies that used to randomly operate a pick winder because they had whatever magic touch. Here is a video of Agibail. The interviewer asked about her technique and she basically has no idea. She’s just a nice old lady that wraps wire.
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How do you know there isn't a non-disclosure there binding her legally to not release trade secrets?

Regardless, people pay a good bit of money for Fender and Gibson or Lollar, Duncan, Dimarzio, or Fralin pickups because it's a known quantity. People want the Ybarra because it is an even more known quantity within Fender. If she is doing the winding, they will be good, because she is basically part of an industry wide standard running back decades.

You say your boostsraps pickups are amazing for $50, which is great really. But it's a $50 dollar gamble with a no-name resale value if it sucks. That is why some guys are stuck on Gibson guitars. If it sucks, you can get most of your money back. On your end, if the boostraps sucks I'm pretty much out the full price because it's worth about the $8 you say over on on ebay because it has no name. If boostrap becomes the biggest name in pickups tomorrow you won't be buying one for $50 anymore.
 
VonBonfire said:
How do you know there isn't a non-disclosure there binding her legally to not release trade secrets?

Regardless, people pay a good bit of money for Fender and Gibson or Lollar, Duncan, Dimarzio, or Fralin pickups because it's a known quantity. People want the Ybarra because it is an even more known quantity within Fender. If she is doing the winding, they will be good, because she is basically part of an industry wide standard running back decades.

You say your boostsraps pickups are amazing for $50, which is great really. But it's a $50 dollar gamble with a no-name resale value if it sucks. That is why some guys are stuck on Gibson guitars. If it sucks, you can get most of your money back. On your end, if the boostraps sucks I'm pretty much out the full price because it's worth about the $8 you say over on on ebay because it has no name. If boostrap becomes the biggest name in pickups tomorrow you won't be buying one for $50 anymore.
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I've played the Bootstrap pickups before - the tele and strat ones were pretty good, the humbucker ones not so much

HBs were better than a 30 dollar wilkinson and worse than a 30$ GFS, single coils were better than both similarly priced brands

I can't see them becoming the biggest name in pickups unless some strat hero decided they were his thing, but then, as you mention, they wont be 50$ anymore

The problem is Killcrop is saying it's all snake oil but then Fralin isn't a snake oil salesman LOL

You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth :dunno:
 
DanTravis62 said:
The problem is Killcrop is saying it's all snake oil but then Fralin isn't a snake oil salesman LOL
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I think hype is part of any name company marketing but how much can you hype pickups? Not that much because word of mouth i.e players make the bigger selling point so, endorsements. I think though that some companies like throbak...their website is pretty much off their charts with their hype machine (and pricing) if you ask me. Equipping the private reserve lawyers with only the most authentic PAF tones, lol.:LOL:
 
VonBonfire said:
I think hype is part of any name company marketing but how much can you hype pickups? Not that much because word of mouth i.e players make the bigger selling point so, endorsements. I think though that some companies like throbak...their website is pretty much off their charts with their hype machine (and pricing) if you ask me. Equipping the private reserve lawyers with only the most authentic PAF tones, lol.:LOL:
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For sure. Throbaks are good, but not as good as their pricing would suggest.

Pickups are definitely a self-regulating thing though, because endorsements only go so far - the real rubber hitting the road is how they sound

If your pickups sound good, players will tell other players
 
DanTravis62 said:
For sure. Throbaks are good, but not as good as their pricing would suggest.
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They have to deliver in some way to justify the asking price and hype but most of my axes aren't much more money than a set of those and nothing clip wise has convinced me to try them over a good ol 57 classic that I can get for a bit over a hundred bucks used. Even if I had the dough, as you said, I have friends with various Lollar and WCR (jim wagner) stuff with great tone I have heard in person that I would place way ahead of throbak as first choice outside Gibson. I love my Lollar DB like the day is long, that's a strong selling point to me to try some of his other offerings down the road. even if they are a bit over $200 each..
 
VonBonfire said:
They have to deliver in some way to justify the asking price and hype but most of my axes aren't much more money than a set of those and nothing clip wise has convinced me to try them over a good ol 57 classic that I can get for a bit over a hundred bucks used. Even if I had the dough, as you said, I have friends with various Lollar and WCR (jim wagner) stuff with great tone I have heard in person that I would place way ahead of throbak as first choice outside Gibson. I love my Lollar DB like the day is long, that's a strong selling point to me to try some of his other offerings down the road. even if they are a bit over $200 each..
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Honestly I think there are specific options in every price range that will get you close to where you need to be.

It all just depends on what you need your pickups to DO

I'm really picky about it, but I can totally get being cool with seymour duncans or whatever - I was when I played punk music almost exclusively

Wagner, Lollar, Fralin, Gibson, they are ALL around the same price, and I don't think that's ridiculous compared to the amount of tone shaping it does
 
like so much else with high end gear, it becomes more like buying a piece of artwork after a certain price point. The particular materials, the winding provenance, the tension on the wire and how it varies as the wire is wound in layers, the hand doing the winding.

Which is fine for people that want it.

For people that don't want to pay the premium for such things, just buy something else.
 
DanTravis62 said:
I've played the Bootstrap pickups before - the tele and strat ones were pretty good, the humbucker ones not so much

HBs were better than a 30 dollar wilkinson and worse than a 30$ GFS, single coils were better than both similarly priced brands

I can't see them becoming the biggest name in pickups unless some strat hero decided they were his thing, but then, as you mention, they wont be 50$ anymore

The problem is Killcrop is saying it's all snake oil but then Fralin isn't a snake oil salesman LOL

You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth :dunno:
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I don’t consider Fralin to be high end. $250 for a set of strat pickups seems standard for a quality brand. I am talking more about Ron Ellis or Rewind. Charging $1000 a set
 
Killcrop said:
I don’t consider Fralin to be high end. $250 for a set of strat pickups seems standard for a quality brand. I am talking more about Ron Ellis or Rewind. Charging $1000 a set
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I think 1000$ sets are stupid too by the way

So, for 8 dollars in materials, 250$

That's a 3125% percent "markup " - what do you think accounts for this markup? Marketing? Magic?

Trying to pretend that making pickups, winding them, and coming up with pickup recipes that work isn't a legitimate skill that requires legitimate investment by the maker is kind of silly - and trying to throw out the material cost as if that's the lynchpin is EXACTLY why it's a silly argument

If a 3 thousand percent markup is okay, and a 12 thousand percent markup isnt, then the dividing line isn't because all pickup makers are full of shit, it's that pickup makers have a wide idea of what kind of price is appropriate for their level of R&D, time, and investment
 
DanTravis62 said:
I think 1000$ sets are stupid too by the way

So, for 8 dollars in materials, 250$

That's a 3125% percent "markup " - what do you think accounts for this markup? Marketing? Magic?

Trying to pretend that making pickups, winding them, and coming up with pickup recipes that work isn't a legitimate skill that requires legitimate investment by the maker is kind of silly - and trying to throw out the material cost as if that's the lynchpin is EXACTLY why it's a silly argument

If a 3 thousand percent markup is okay, and a 12 thousand percent markup isnt, then the dividing line isn't because all pickup makers are full of shit, it's that pickup makers have a wide idea of what kind of price is appropriate for their level of R&D, time, and investment
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What I have issue with is the guys selling $1000 pickups aren’t any better than what Fralin is doing for $250. Just hype and marketing. There just isn’t enough variables to be that different. Can we agree on that?

Amp making has a lot more components and variables.
 
Killcrop said:
What I have issue with is the guys selling $1000 pickups aren’t any better than what Fralin is doing for $250. Just hype and marketing. There just isn’t enough variables to be that different. Can we agree on that?

Amp making has a lot more components and variables.
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Yeah, I agree with that.
 
I’m a little surprised no one has referenced this. “Value” is not the same as “cost”.

A man calls a plumber to his home to solve a problem with one of his pipes. The plumber looks around and listens for about 10 minutes, and then he grabs a pipe wrench and hits a pipe three or four times in the same place. The problem is quickly solved. The plumber then hands the man his bill, and the man is shocked to see that the invoice is for $200. The man objects, “How on earth can you charge $200 for simply banging on a pipe three or four times with a pipe wrench? I demand that you clarify this bill.” The plumber takes the invoice from the man, recalculates it, and hands it back. The invoice now reads:

Item one: Hitting the pipe with a pipe wrench–$2.00

Item two: Knowing to hit the pipe with the pipe wrench–$99

Item three: Knowing where and how to hit it–$99
 
I mean maybe some stuff I wouldn't pay for......


But if I had the money I'd get a set of Abigail pups for 10,000$ dollars if that's what they cost..... but short of that Seymour Duncans are great ^_^
 
Killcrop said:
What I have issue with is the guys selling $1000 pickups aren’t any better than what Fralin is doing for $250. Just hype and marketing. There just isn’t enough variables to be that different. Can we agree on that?

Amp making has a lot more components and variables.
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I thinmnits
Crazy for people to pay for Duncan custom shop humbuckers. They’re still machine wound. Just someone else watching the machine. Their single coils are hand wound, but not humbuckers
 
scottosan said:
I thinmnits
Crazy for people to pay for Duncan custom shop humbuckers. They’re still machine wound. Just someone else watching the machine. Their single coils are hand wound, but not humbuckers
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I mean I get but they are still made to a certain spec you wouldn't get otherwise, not sure what Duncan Custom shops go for but relative to whatever other stuff and those insane prices Duncan Custom Shop may not be so bad.....

I mean how much does a Duncan Custom Shop go for? Is there a minimum price or something?

Either way not for me but maybe it makes sense for some and probably not that bad given that they are made to Custom specs.
 
The~Kid said:
I mean I get but they are still made to a certain spec you wouldn't get otherwise, not sure what Duncan Custom shops go for but relative to whatever other stuff and those insane prices Duncan Custom Shop may not be so bad.....

I mean how much does a Duncan Custom Shop go for? Is there a minimum price or something?

Either way not for me but maybe it makes sense for some and probably not that bad given that they are made to Custom specs.
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The same specs are used for many model. I get getting a model that’s not in production, but an custom shop version of your favorite is questionable
 
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