I'm fighting my 800 these days

[Kapo_Polenton]

Anyone else find the "bright n tight" 2204 circuit to not be forgiving in the slightest for lead playing? I've got a 4140 and a 2204 I built. Both are modded slightly for a bit more gain but I still find myself having to boost them. (TS-9 , EQ pedal, or SD-1) Anyway, not sure what has changed about my playing but I am playing my Randall MTS stuff more as i find the tone more forgiving. By that, I mean a tad "softer" or with less treble and tight high cut. The tone is still tight but the highs are more under control. The trade off is that the MTS stuff lacks the girth of my Marshalls but overall when recorded, there is little to no difference.

So straight up AC DC types rythms, you just can't beat the JMP/800's. Huge sounding and I love them for that. When I start playing lead though, just not digging it as much. Already have the treble down considerably, lowered bright cap, and presence dialed back. I know a lot of guys play these with treb/presence at 0. I'm wondering how the EVH blue channel is feel wise for lead playing? How do the blue channels on the EVH and Bogner XTC compare? Maybe time for a shake up!

 

[RevolverRT]

There's plenty of Ectacy vs. EVH comparisons on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... nd+ecstacy

Owning the 5150III 50w....The blue channel has more Marshall-esque attitude and can do leads well with the gain at like 1-2oclock. The red channel just sings for leads. Its an amp I plug straight into and sounds/feels excellent to play. I had to use an overdrive forever with my valveking.

 

[Ratou]

Unforgiving is usually a good thing in my humble opinion, it makes you become a better player and forces you to really dig in the notes to extract the sound you have in you're head, I also feel these amps are more responsive to the player's dynamics and nuances.

Moreover, when you switch to another amp that is more forgiving, you can just shred away and everything seems easy!

 

[74JMP]

Anyone else find the "bright n tight" 2204 circuit to not be forgiving in the slightest for lead playing? I've got a 4140 and a 2204 I built. Both are modded slightly for a bit more gain but I still find myself having to boost them. (TS-9 , EQ pedal, or SD-1) Anyway, not sure what has changed about my playing but I am playing my Randall MTS stuff more as i find the tone more forgiving. By that, I mean a tad "softer" or with less treble and tight high cut. The tone is still tight but the highs are more under control. The trade off is that the MTS stuff lacks the girth of my Marshalls but overall when recorded, there is little to no difference.

When I first got my JMP it completely kicked my ass and forced me to work harder on any and all lead work. Now when I play a "high gain" amp, they feel like toys and are in no way as fun as the JMP/800 circuit.

More volume helps, but overall these amps force you to work harder and play better in the long run.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Unforgiving is usually a good thing in my humble opinion, it makes you become a better player and forces you to really dig in the notes to extract the sound you have in you're head, I also feel these amps are more responsive to the player's dynamics and nuances.

Moreover, when you switch to another amp that is more forgiving, you can just shred away and everything seems easy!

So maybe practice on an 800 and record on something different. I think a contributing factor is that I am playing with less gain than I ever have. I'm forcing myself to work a lot more and might have burned out. I just don't like too much stacking with an 800 or too much gain from a pedal as it notches up the treble considerably and alters the sound of the amp too much. I hope I'm not turning into one of those "gain from the amp" kinda guys...

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Interesting comparison here:

Found the green channel on the EVH to smoke the Bogner, but on the Blue channel, the bogner may have been slightly darker but it had better note definition. The red on the VH is more hollow sounding and the Red on the bogner is more present and full. Both sound good though..

 

[War Admiral]

I find the EVH sounds better than the Bogner...it cuts more. In a band situation this would be it....but if your playing by yourself I can see where lots of people would like the Bogner...fatter and squishier but with strong hands and pick attack the JMP kills them both

 

[aw9190]

Unforgiving is usually a good thing in my humble opinion, it makes you become a better player and forces you to really dig in the notes to extract the sound you have in you're head, I also feel these amps are more responsive to the player's dynamics and nuances.

Moreover, when you switch to another amp that is more forgiving, you can just shred away and everything seems easy!

So maybe practice on an 800 and record on something different. I think a contributing factor is that I am playing with less gain than I ever have. I'm forcing myself to work a lot more and might have burned out. I just don't like too much stacking with an 800 or too much gain from a pedal as it notches up the treble considerably and alters the sound of the amp too much. I hope I'm not turning into one of those "gain from the amp" kinda guys...

Maybe try a compressor? I have been running an HBE cpr comp with minimal sustain settings and a lot of level so it kinda hits the front of my 2204 and YJM harder. Gives a slighlty more rubber feel and shaves just a touch of the highs off. with minimal sustain settings it cleans up with little effort too. I also use it with my OD9 when i feel i need more sauce. This helps a lot overall at low vol settings. may be worth a shot

 

[RevolverRT]

Interesting comparison here:



Found the green channel on the EVH to smoke the Bogner, but on the Blue channel, the bogner may have been slightly darker but it had better note definition. The red on the VH is more hollow sounding and the Red on the bogner is more present and full. Both sound good though..

I think from the clips i've heard, the EVH and Ecstacy are similar...the EVH has quite a bit more mids in its voicing. However, the biggest thing to me is the price difference. The EVH 100W is $1799, the 50W version is $999. The Bogner Ecstacy is $3599.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgsJRV5LlSA

The 50w vs ecstacy

 

[Dingleberries]

I don't own an 800, but I own a similar circuit in a Laney Pro-Tube 50. It's a very dry & unforgiving tone, but it's very rewarding to clean playing & cuts like a knife.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I actually gutted my LAney pro tubes 50 and made it into this PTP 2204 monster (and had to replace a tranny) In a way i wish i hadn't because it is clear that the reason i never liked the sound was probably because the transformer was going in the first place but alas i am too lazy to put it all back ! Maybe one day.

 

[splatter]

I like the tightness of the marshalls but never liked the brightness . You built it so you have the knowledge to change it . You can open it up and change the value of a few of the caps and make the voice of the amp darker , it will still sound like a Marshall just not as bright . Thats what I did when I rebuilt mine . Makes a world of difference .

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I like the tightness of the marshalls but never liked the brightness . You built it so you have the knowledge to change it . You can open it up and change the value of a few of the caps and make the voice of the amp darker , it will still sound like a Marshall just not as bright . Thats what I did when I rebuilt mine . Makes a world of difference .

True. I think the combos are voiced a little darker due to the 4700pf cap on the mid cap but it robs some perceived gain.. I remember removing the treble peaking caps out of my old Traynor and I rebuilt that thing into a plexi monster. Might have to dig in here as well because so far I have mainly been messing with gain mods.. I tend to always come back to more or less stock values though. Brightness though, hard to dial in. I can love the tighter lows one minute then hate the harsher highs..

 

[cardinal]

What speakers are you using? I run a 4010 into an early '80s 4x12 of G12-65s, and it would not describe the amp as bright at all (bright cap is still on there).

But, sometimes are tastes just drift. I'm nearly always playing a Triple Recto these days rather than the JCM 800, but that 800 was all I would touch for a long time. I suspect I'll circle back to it in the near future. That's why I like having both amps around.

 

[mchn13]

I always zeroed the treb and kept the pres low, but with a boost would get as gainy as i ever needed it to play leads with...

 

[Schaf]

What speakers are you using? I run a 4010 into an early '80s 4x12 of G12-65s, and it would not describe the amp as bright at all (bright cap is still on there).

But, sometimes are tastes just drift. I'm nearly always playing a Triple Recto these days rather than the JCM 800, but that 800 was all I would touch for a long time. I suspect I'll circle back to it in the near future. That's why I like having both amps around.

I was going to say the exact same thing with the speakers. The 65's most definitely smooth out the sound as far as treble. But I still prefer the T75's with that amp. Just sounds meaner with the 75's.

Pickups can make a big difference. I've found that say a Gibson 57 classic can trebly and brash. But like a 498T, SD JB, 500T or and Aldrich drive the front end of the amp enough to make it sound warmer to me. In my opinion a higher oputput pickup works better with the 800. YMMV.

Have you ever tried just a straight clean boost. If you don't want that really overdriven ts or DS like sound a straight clean boost can push it over the edge enough to make it easier to play.

Bottom line is with an in your face amp like that, it's going to be harder to play than a super saturated amp. But the notes will be defined and clear. For me, I use a TS 9 to overdrive mine and it gets plenty saturated for me. It's much easier to play, but the notes still sound defined and clear.

 

[Schaf]

I always zeroed the treb and kept the pres low, but with a boost would get as gainy as i ever needed it to play leads with...

I'm not sure about yours, but mine sounds horrible dialed in like that. You may want to have that amp checked out. However, in most cases, I run the presence around 2 or 3.

 

[ibenhad]

Try power tubes. Your probably running EL34's in the Marshall and 6L6's in the Randall. The EL34's would be tighter than the 6L6's. I run 6L6 and EL34 together in the Randall and it works real well. Worth a try. Unless of course you have EL34's in the Randall.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Some good responses... I'll address a few.

Speakers- I've always used a greenback / weber legacy cab or the G1265 that came with the combo. I think the combo sounds better to my ears (someone else noted they were able to use treb and presence with combo) because of the open back but also because of that 4700pf cap over the mid pot. Shaves off a ton of high end. Makes the amp sound a lot better with pedals too.

Tubes - EL34's in both my randalls and jcm800's and now 6CA7's to mix it up. RFT NOS in V1 as i find it warmer.

Volume - Definitely needed to get a but more fullness and sag. Problem is, even with a hotplate, you still need to wind it up pretty loud to get the mojo.

Clean Boosts - Not a huge fan of them. In the stock circuit, brings out a lot of the high end I don't like. Koko sounds good with the Randall though!

What I did tonight is mess with the treble peaking caps but ended up going back to stock + the mid pot cap which is in a lot of the combos. Also, the negative feedback wired to speaker jacks helps to soften the sound some. That mid cap compromises crunch a bit but I get that back with an SD-1 and a higher output pup. Still wish it had a bit more sag but I guess for my ears, this is as good as it will get. I'm thinking i might just have to reamp if i record anything. Kind of makes the amp seem kind of useless for home playing though doesn't it! I can see the use of those little 1 watter heads now.

 

[born_hard]

As mentioned already, obviously for leads you need a clean boost or an Overdrive pedal to get some saturation and overtones. Nothing wrong with that cause the 800 circuit love these pedals, they complement the amp really nice. If you feel that you get to much treble with the pedals, buy a pedal with a Tone control or with a Treble and Bass control like the Bad Monkey. Since there are hundreds of boost and overdrive pedals out there, i`m pretty sure you will find the right one. Just be sure that you like the basic tone of your amp first. The JCM800 is trebly, but once you get into a sweet spot on the master you should be fine. I suggest you, levae the circuit stock, and experiment with loudspeakers, cabinets (4x12 adds some bottom), and last but not least where your relative position is while playing (in front of the cab can be ear piercing, just move some feet out of the Speaker-beam