Ben Waylin
Well-known member
Man that's so weird.
Man that's so weird.
I am not familiar with roman catholic doctrine regarding Mary but I don't see how intercessory prayer is a bad thing. If they are alive in Christ then it's like calling up a trusted friend and saying "hey, I'm sick, would you pray for me?"I could be wrong about what their doctrine is 'cause I assumed it based on many observations of Catholics sitting beside "deathbeds" praying to Mary for their loved ones to be healed.
To me that's fucked-up no matter how someone spins it.
15 years old plus 1, hotter than a microwave oven. Mary baby, daddy is coming home.Not only that Mary is quite contrary and is concerned about how her garden grows. You know all those silver bells and cockle shells and all that other stuff.
Except that that is not what I'm saying. I've seen peeps pray to Mary to heal the sick, which is ridiculous-and-misguided IMHO.I am not familiar with roman catholic doctrine regarding Mary but I don't see how intercessory prayer is a bad thing. If they are alive in Christ then it's like calling up a trusted friend and saying "hey, I'm sick, would you pray for me?"
3 "problems" with that bro':Here is "A Prayer To Your Guardian Angel" from my Greek Orthodox prayer book:
"O Angel of Christ, holy guardian and protector of my soul and body, forgive me everything wherein I have offended thee every day of my life and protect me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. May I never more anger God by any sin. Pray for me to the Lord,that He may make me worthy of the grace of the All Holy Trinity, and of the Most Blessed Theotokos, and of all the Saints. Amen"
From the same book. "Prayer To Your Patron Saint"
"Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (name), well pleasing to God: for I turn unto thee, who are the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul"
Yes this.Except that that is not what I'm saying. I've seen peeps pray to Mary to heal the sick, which is ridiculous-and-misguided IMHO.
3 "problems" with that bro':
1) "forgive me everything wherein I have offended thee every day of my life"
Only God can truly forgive. Praying for forgiveness to anyone else, even a guardian angel, is IMHO missing the point.
Why go to the middle man when you can address the source directly?
2) "May I never more anger God by any sin"
Talk about an unrealistic wish. Show me a man who's capable of that besides Jesus Christ.
3) "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (name)" is again missing an opportunity to go directly to the source of all power, love and wisdom.
A personal relationship with God is encouraged throughout the scriptures.
I get that you're Orthodox. Personally I don't place any person "higher" than any other. Every Saint, Bishop, Pastor, Rabbi, Pope and whoever has and will continue to sin according to the incomprehensibly-high standards of God... because none of them is God... which in turns means that none is able to "cast the first stone" (be without sin)... or forgive our sins for that matter. Only the sinless can do that and there's only one man in history who attained that status.
Only God can truly forgive. Praying for forgiveness to anyone else, even a guardian angel, is IMHO missing the point.
What does the Lord say to the adulterous woman? John 8:11....."GO AND SIN NO MORE". So did she?Talk about an unrealistic wish. Show me a man who's capable of that besides Jesus Christ.
So you've never asked a family member or friend or pastor to pray for you in a time of difficulty? Since you can go right to the source of all power, love, and wisdom their prayers aren't needed or helpful?3) "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint (name)" is again missing an opportunity to go directly to the source of all power, love and wisdom.
Personally I don't place any person "higher" than any other. Every Saint, Bishop, Pastor, Rabbi, Pope and whoever has and will continue to sin according to the incomprehensibly-high standards of God... because none of them is God... which in turns means that none is able to "cast the first stone" (be without sin)... or forgive our sins for that matter. Only the sinless can do that and there's only one man in history who attained that status.
Ok... we are asking the Lord for forgiveness there in the same way we would forgive someone who sins against us and asks us for forgiveness."give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US"
The Lord's prayer doesn't say "forgive those who sin against us when they ask us for forgiveness".
Ok... we are asking the Lord for forgiveness there in the same way we would forgive someone who sins against us and asks us for forgiveness.
Luke 17:3-4:Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand to pray, if you hold anything against another, forgive it, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your trespasses as well."
We are not held to a higher standard than God.If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, “I repent,” you must forgive him.
Agreed. Which is why the Lord asks the father to forgive the people who hung him on a cross though they themselves did not ask for forgiveness.We are not held to a higher standard than God.
That verse in Luke I quoted... it doesn't say forgive if he doesn't repent you know. It's only if he repents.Agreed. Which is why the Lord asks the father to forgive the people who hung him on a cross though they themselves did not ask for forgiveness.
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Seems to conflictThat verse in Luke I quoted... it doesn't say forgive if he doesn't repent you know. It's only if he repents.
I think that if you read the other verses that don't say that you can still read it into it without conflict. It says we must forgive but generally you don't forgive someone that's not sorry and keeps doing it. You can still hold out hope, have an attitude of forgiveness (in anticipation) and hope they come around.Seems to conflict
Well as you know there are universalists, and apparently the orthodox lean this way. Just saying it’s not cut and dry.I think that if you read the other verses that don't say that you can still read it into it without conflict. It says we must forgive but generally you don't forgive someone that's not sorry and keeps doing it. You can still hold out hope, have an attitude of forgiveness (in anticipation) and hope they come around.
No it's not really cut and dry... there's quite a bit of debate to and fro about it if you research it.Well as you know there are universalists, and apparently the orthodox lean this way. Just saying it’s not cut and dry.
That's not to say the level of forgiveness is the same."give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our sins AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US"
Agreed. IMHO it's a blanket command with no caveats.This was my Priest's response to @Thumbpicker claiming we only have to forgive someone who asks us for forgiveness. The Lord's prayer doesn't say "forgive those who sin against us when they ask us for forgiveness".
Context. It's obvious He was referring first and foremost to her adultery.What does the Lord say to the adulterous woman? John 8:11....."GO AND SIN NO MORE". So did she?
Great point mate; I didn't think of it this way.So you've never asked a family member or friend or pastor to pray for you in a time of difficulty? Since you can go right to the source of all power, love, and wisdom their prayers aren't needed or helpful?
I agree 100%.Not really sure why this is part of the conversation but the office of priest or bishop is an office of service to others and in the church an orthodox priest does not absolve you of sins he only acts as a witness to your confession.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and we are cleansed of unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9
But it says if you forgive the sins of others your sins will also be forgiven. That sounds like absolution to me.IMHO God's forgiveness entails absolution, something we "mere mortals" cannot carry out.
Might be me splitting hairs but if she turned into a drunk after that it wouldn't do her any favors. I saw it as a blanket admonishment.Context. It's obvious He was referring first and foremost to her adultery.
I gather that he does. Christ said the one who humbles himself like a child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4The implication I was getting from your posts and quotes was that these peeps believe that Saints and whoever's prayers carry more weight somehow, which is something I disagree with 'cause God doesn't play favourites.
Well at an orthodox church the priest mostly works behind the iconostasis, where the altar is. There are relics of holy martyrs on the altar, a requirement for holy communion. But aside that he is very accessible and I can text or call him at any time. It's a life of service to others and an office worthy of respect.IOW, I'm sceptical by-default when I see peeps adorning robes and "hiding behind" ritual, only to disappear thereafter into a "secret" chamber... or office or elsewhere. My bias, for sure.