Just out of curiosity...

  • Thread starter Thread starter jcj
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I do know what Mark did to #008 verbatim. Some of it was no brainer basic stuff that was neglected in manufacturing and other stuff was design changes that he had nothing to do with. Something not a lot of people know is #008 was the first time he had ever even seen one on person much less played and poked around in one. He could not believe an amp manufacturer would put out an amp with such basic design/manufacturing problems. As he pointed it out to a simple guitar player that has almost no working knowledge of electronics, even I was cracking up. Within 15 minutes with a soldering iron it was insanely better. 8 more hours of doing what he wanted to do and the amp was moving into legendary status. No I will not say what he did as that is his business. I will share the things with the current owner if there are a few things I might have forgot. As far as the MM transformers there is a difference over the cheaper makes. It was replaced due to the original being bad. There is nothing special about the transformers that he gets other than a specific model and specs. They are off the shelf and available to anyone. No secret sauce there.

Why did I sell it? I have two other mods that are just as good. I am sure it will stay in a select tight knit group. Plus he would build me anything I asked for. Reverse engineer it? OK for what it's worth here's my take on that. I could give you all the world champion chili recipe and all the ingredients. Does that mean you all can win with it? No. He proved it to me many times. Imagine this. Amp on and apart. Guitar strapped on and soldering iron in hand. He is soldering in particular resisters and playing it in real time. Voltages are so sensitive and such tiny variances make such a huge difference. So soldering in the same value resistor or cap should produce the same tone right?? I have watched him change resistors of the same value and keep pulling it over and over because of the feel. I heard it. You simply can not teach what he does period. You all would solder in the correct value resister, he might go through 4 or 5 to get the sound and feel he wants. It is fact take it for what it's worth. Modifying the voltages at the input stage even fractionally translates to huge changes down the line. The variances in resistors in the input stage is enough to change things hugely. Experience allows him to exploit this and compensate for it throughout the amp. Can you build a car that can drive down the road with parts and instructions? Yup. Can you win the Indy 500 with it? He could. There is his value.

I am not here to defend Mark we are all entitled to our opinions. What can't be argued is his place in the tone world. He deserves to be up there with the handful of greats that have pioneered the way. We all take from our predecessors. Most make it worse. Some make it better. The greats set the bar to another level. In life... making music... even building amps.
 
^ So really there is no hope for a perfect mass produced Cameron amp because unless he sits there and pokes at each one for 8 hours they can't be replicated...there is no way you can get around manufacturing tolerances of the components and having to have Mark tweak each one for hours...making the $10,000 amp a reality.
 
lespaul6":1s3npbup said:
Chubtone":1s3npbup said:
paulyc":1s3npbup said:
Mark made some statements that led people to believe that the amps weren't exactly what he designed, suggesting that he kept cards up his sleeve.

Mark has made lots of statements. What better way to discredit those designs but to call them napkin scribbles even if they aren't? That makes it seem like what he has up his sleeve is better and those guys have inferior designs.


+1 I had dave modify my marshall 1959 slp with the atomica mod from the production models and it sounds fantastic.. much different than his BE HBE designs... no lower mid emphasis and much more aggressive. It is a fantastic amp and I would buy a socal atomica if they decide to make them again without hesitation. In contrast I had a real Cameron modded slp with the high gain low gain jose and six position rotary on the back and it didn't sound that great. I sold it to Lugo and he sold it off quick too...


I agree it is a great amp and I bought mine used after demoing it at TM against the BE100 and SS100 in 2012 so I know what I was getting. I never played any of Mark's mods. Only the Atomica and CCV.
 
metalmaniac93":2l0rcwnm said:
lespaul6":2l0rcwnm said:
Chubtone":2l0rcwnm said:
paulyc":2l0rcwnm said:
Mark made some statements that led people to believe that the amps weren't exactly what he designed, suggesting that he kept cards up his sleeve.

Mark has made lots of statements. What better way to discredit those designs but to call them napkin scribbles even if they aren't? That makes it seem like what he has up his sleeve is better and those guys have inferior designs.


+1 I had dave modify my marshall 1959 slp with the atomica mod from the production models and it sounds fantastic.. much different than his BE HBE designs... no lower mid emphasis and much more aggressive. It is a fantastic amp and I would buy a socal atomica if they decide to make them again without hesitation. In contrast I had a real Cameron modded slp with the high gain low gain jose and six position rotary on the back and it didn't sound that great. I sold it to Lugo and he sold it off quick too...


I agree it is a great amp and I bought mine used after demoing it at TM against the BE100 and SS100 in 2012 so I know what I was getting. I never played any of Mark's mods. Only the Atomica and CCV.

You didn't play my 1987X?
 
paulyc":1ib2wxt6 said:
^ So really there is no hope for a perfect mass produced Cameron amp because unless he sits there and pokes at each one for 8 hours they can't be replicated...there is no way you can get around manufacturing tolerances of the components and having to have Mark tweak each one for hours...making the $10,000 amp a reality.



It can be a reality if done right. So far it hasn't. Charging $3600 for an amp should include custom tuning by the amp maker. It is well documented that most of the people charging that do not do this. I was told that Friedman himself checked #008 before it was shipped to me. That was either a lie or he simply doesn't know what he is doing. The simple fact is if you put a pile of parts in front of most of the people that have their name on an amp, they couldn't even produce a functioning model. That includes some big names. Those big names bash those that can. Marketing often trumps ability. There will always be people that fall for that just like there will always be people that know better.

Wanna settle the argument? It would be simple. Amp build off! Give the top 10 amp modder/manufacturers the same parts and 3 days to build. Amps auctioned off to the highest bidders. Separate the men from the boys. Some would go for 10k, some you couldn't give away. I know I would be willing to chip in for parts to make that happen lol....
 
drewiv":ztkq7q28 said:
metalmaniac93":ztkq7q28 said:
lespaul6":ztkq7q28 said:
Chubtone":ztkq7q28 said:
paulyc":ztkq7q28 said:
Mark made some statements that led people to believe that the amps weren't exactly what he designed, suggesting that he kept cards up his sleeve.

Mark has made lots of statements. What better way to discredit those designs but to call them napkin scribbles even if they aren't? That makes it seem like what he has up his sleeve is better and those guys have inferior designs.


+1 I had dave modify my marshall 1959 slp with the atomica mod from the production models and it sounds fantastic.. much different than his BE HBE designs... no lower mid emphasis and much more aggressive. It is a fantastic amp and I would buy a socal atomica if they decide to make them again without hesitation. In contrast I had a real Cameron modded slp with the high gain low gain jose and six position rotary on the back and it didn't sound that great. I sold it to Lugo and he sold it off quick too...


I agree it is a great amp and I bought mine used after demoing it at TM against the BE100 and SS100 in 2012 so I know what I was getting. I never played any of Mark's mods. Only the Atomica and CCV.

You didn't play my 1987X?

Drew, no I did not. We talked about it when you had it there but we got sidetracked!!! :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL: :lol: :LOL: I am going to have to drive down there in the near future so I can jam on that and the Henning CB and you can check out the Gower KK++.
 
BCSMFD":1aik0uzy said:
paulyc":1aik0uzy said:
^ So really there is no hope for a perfect mass produced Cameron amp because unless he sits there and pokes at each one for 8 hours they can't be replicated...there is no way you can get around manufacturing tolerances of the components and having to have Mark tweak each one for hours...making the $10,000 amp a reality.



It can be a reality if done right. So far it hasn't. Charging $3600 for an amp should include custom tuning by the amp maker. It is well documented that most of the people charging that do not do this. I was told that Friedman himself checked #008 before it was shipped to me. That was either a lie or he simply doesn't know what he is doing. The simple fact is if you put a pile of parts in front of most of the people that have their name on an amp, they couldn't even produce a functioning model. That includes some big names. Those big names bash those that can. Marketing often trumps ability. There will always be people that fall for that just like there will always be people that know better.

Wanna settle the argument? It would be simple. Amp build off! Give the top 10 amp modder/manufacturers the same parts and 3 days to build. Amps auctioned off to the highest builder. Separate the men from the boys. Some would go for 10k, some you couldn't give away. I know I would be willing to chip in for parts to make that happen lol....


That's the best damn idea I have seen in a long time! Count me in on this race! :thumbsup:
 
BCSMFD":37wumw2i said:
It can be a reality if done right. So far it hasn't. Charging $3600 for an amp should include custom tuning by the amp maker. It is well documented that most of the people charging that do not do this. I was told that Friedman himself checked #008 before it was shipped to me. That was either a lie or he simply doesn't know what he is doing. The simple fact is if you put a pile of parts in front of most of the people that have their name on an amp, they couldn't even produce a functioning model. That includes some big names. Those big names bash those that can. Marketing often trumps ability. There will always be people that fall for that just like there will always be people that know better.

Wanna settle the argument? It would be simple. Amp build off! Give the top 10 amp modder/manufacturers the same parts and 3 days to build. Amps auctioned off to the highest bidders. Separate the men from the boys. Some would go for 10k, some you couldn't give away. I know I would be willing to chip in for parts to make that happen lol....

Look, I really like Mark. I've known him personally for 20 years. I just saw him a week and a half ago. But his amp wouldn't be done in 3 days for this contest. There would be 9 guys there. None more talented than Mark, but all more disciplined and more business savvy. That is part of the problem. Mark is who he is. He is a mad scientist. He is your conquering hero in your tone quest. He can be the biggest nightmare in your tone quest. He really is like the tortured artist.

I believe Friedman might have played #008 before shipping it out to you. There is such a huge difference between Dave's abilities on guitar and Mark's. Mark is a monster guitarist with a crazy, aggressive, attacking feel and his amplifiers accentuate that. If the tiniest thing is wrong in the sound or the feel, Mark is going to zero in on it. The next guy, bashing out some power chords doesn't have the ability to play like that so he doesn't have the ability to fine tune it the way Mark does.

This is a new era in amp building. There are many great players in the amp building business these days. Mark Cameron rips. David Bray rips. Scott Splawn rips. Mike Fortin rips. Rockstah Mark ripped. You put some amp knowledge in those guys heads and then combine it with their hands and ears and you have the best combination of talents to create a killer sounding and feeling amp.
 
Chubtone":y7bnnzww said:
BCSMFD":y7bnnzww said:
It can be a reality if done right. So far it hasn't. Charging $3600 for an amp should include custom tuning by the amp maker. It is well documented that most of the people charging that do not do this. I was told that Friedman himself checked #008 before it was shipped to me. That was either a lie or he simply doesn't know what he is doing. The simple fact is if you put a pile of parts in front of most of the people that have their name on an amp, they couldn't even produce a functioning model. That includes some big names. Those big names bash those that can. Marketing often trumps ability. There will always be people that fall for that just like there will always be people that know better.

Wanna settle the argument? It would be simple. Amp build off! Give the top 10 amp modder/manufacturers the same parts and 3 days to build. Amps auctioned off to the highest bidders. Separate the men from the boys. Some would go for 10k, some you couldn't give away. I know I would be willing to chip in for parts to make that happen lol....

Look, I really like Mark. I've known him personally for 20 years. I just saw him a week and a half ago. But his amp wouldn't be done in 3 days for this contest. There would be 9 guys there. None more talented than Mark, but all more disciplined and more business savvy. That is part of the problem. Mark is who he is. He is a mad scientist. He is your conquering hero in your tone quest. He can be the biggest nightmare in your tone quest. He really is like the tortured artist.

I believe Friedman might have played #008 before shipping it out to you. There is such a huge difference between Dave's abilities on guitar and Mark's. Mark is a monster guitarist with a crazy, aggressive, attacking feel and his amplifiers accentuate that. If the tiniest thing is wrong in the sound or the feel, Mark is going to zero in on it. The next guy, bashing out some power chords doesn't have the ability to play like that so he doesn't have the ability to fine tune it the way Mark does.

This is a new era in amp building. There are many great players in the amp building business these days. Mark Cameron rips. David Bray rips. Scott Splawn rips. Mike Fortin rips. Rockstah Mark ripped. You put some amp knowledge in those guys heads and then combine it with their hands and ears and you have the best combination of talents to create a killer sounding and feeling amp.

You will get ZERO argument from me there. Hammer meet nail. However, "disciplined" and "business savvy" help get them to market, not build a "better" amp. I was addressing pure amp knowledge and skill with overall tone and versatility that most of us desire. Everyone on your list is amazing at what they do no doubt. Settle it in the ring boys! Build off!!
 
If Mark did show up with an amp its most likely game over for the other contestants. LOL
 
I don't know if I'd go that far... I think Fortin builds really cool stuff too...
 
I love the idea of a West Coast Choppers style Biker Build off.... but for amps! I think it should be on Discovery too.... back in 1999 when it started you could see the real builders who made their own frames and formed the sheet metal tanks and fenders from those who just purchased a bunch of parts from a catalog and bolted them together! This is a great idea :thumbsup:
 
paulyc":rzkf4ixb said:
Friedman uses all three (Classic Tone, Heyboer, and MM) in the Dirty Shirley I think (I'm positive about the first 2, just not the MMs). I believe the Atomica and Old Bitch were designed for MMs, but got the Classic Tones as a cost cutting measure. When I have the funds my Atomica is getting MMs.
Splawn uses Heyboer in all their amps and they aren't cheap trannys by any means...but they're not in the Cameron amps.


Splawn uses Classic tone.
 
I had 2 Splawns, they were both Heyboer , and always were, so IF they use Classic Tone now, it's a fairly recent change (and news to me).
 
I wonder what happened...Scott used to put the Heyboer logo on his page...must have parted ways.
 
Well, the price of the amps didn't drop...but apparently the quality has if they are using the less expensive transformers.
 
 
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