Mike Soldano talks about EVH's Marshall

[johnnyjellybean]

I know for a fact that Mike has a selective memory when it comes to certain things. I won't go into detail.

 

[nitro]

code001 whats your point, weird in what way,what have you brought to the table.Stay on topic if you can....

 

[glip22]

Jose explained to me that he added a master volume to Eds Plexi.Was the amp stock,answer,no.

What kind of master volume?

The Jose master before the tone stack.

So nothing that would "add gain"?

If the amp had a Jose master chances are it had other Jose mods that did not alter the chassis in any way, If the gain stage was cascaded I believe it would add gain. There was always something I heard in Ed's tone, mostly in the highs that just sound like a mild diode clipping. Really, no one knows but Ed and he's not talking. The only facts I know are Jose was his tech. Jose was working on an amp or something with Ed and that Marshall has a pot hole in the back. The rest.... Who knows.


Here’s the summary of EVH’s # 1 Marshall SuperLead ( as well as the possible spec changes to the Amp during its life span ) ….

Eddie’s Plexi was # 12301 and below is the spec from serial # 12267 Plexi ( 34 ‘units’ prior to Eddie’s ) ….

- split cathode V1a 250uF/820,V1b .68/820
- all coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
- bright cap on volume pot 0,005uF
- 470k mixer resistors
- 470pF mixer bypass cap
- bypass cap on V2a is .68uF
- 33k/556pF tone stack combo
- 47k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
- 220k bias splitter resistors
- 0.1uF cap on presence control
- 47pf on PI

- Stock Output Transformer: 1.5 inch Dagnall ….

Next, when John Suhr saw the amp in 1991, it had a fat cap electrolyte ( probably 470uf ) in parallel with the stock .68uf on V2. So, since 1991 is a long time after 1977 …, take away the fat cap on v2 that John Suhr saw in 1991, and we get this:

- split cathode V1a 250uF/820,V1b .68/820
- all coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
- bright cap on volume pot 0,005uF
- 470k mixer resistors
- 500pF mixer bypass cap
- bypass cap on V2a is .68uF
- 33k/500pF tone stack combo
- 100k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
- 220k bias splitter resistors
- 0.1uF cap on presence control
- .022uf output couplers
- 47pf on PI

At this point, the amp probably still had the stock Dagnall 1.5 inch output transformer …, although there’s absolutely no way to confirm that.

Transformer notwithstanding …, this is most likely the spec that the amp had when Eddie ( & Co ) recorded VH I …. And is also most likely prior to any supposed “modding” by Jose Arredondo… !

But in between VH I & VH II it’s generally accepted that Eddie’s tone changed ever so slightly. I can’t speak for everyone, but to me, it seems just a tad warmer …? And based on what I’ve read, this just might account for Jose’s involvement ?

It’s rumoured that if someone came in to his shop and complained that their amp was too bright, one of the first things he did was the “fat cap mod” ( cap on V2a is .68uF and a 220uf to 470uf ), which is what John Suhr saw when he worked on the amp in 1991.

Also, keep in mind that before John Suhr saw the amp, it may have already been to Steve Fryette to have the output transformer changed …,

…, “probably” to a VHT ( or maybe a Drake ) 2.0 inch output transformer ….

O.K., you’ve probably also noticed that there are a couple of other small differences:

1.) a 500pF mixer bypass cap instead of a 470pF mixer bypass cap
2.) 33k/500pF tone stack combo instead of a 33k/556pF tone stack combo
3.) 100k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap instead of a 47k NFB, and …,
4.) 022uf output couplers that the earlier Plexi doesn’t seem to mention ….

These differences are most likely supported by Steve Fryette, John Suhr and Dave Friedman who all commented that the Amp was stock, but that “some” of the values were different than other Plexi’s from the same general date(s). For a short time there was even an argument over John Suhr’s statement that “most” of the solder joints were in fact un-tampered with ….

Fryette, Suhr and Friedman all seem to agree that these are just standard Marshall production variations. In fact, some people ( although not Fryette, Suhr or Friedman ) have even referred to the amp as “transitional” from the Plexi, to the Metal Panel era(s) ….

And keep in mind that both the 470uf and .68uf were replaced by a 330uf electrolyte at some point too. But, I don’t t list them in any of the specs above or below, because it’s generally accepted that they have now been changed back to what’s listed. And since it can’t be confirmed that he ever recorded with that configuration I left it out !

One other thing that is known and accepted is that Eddie sent the amp to Holland to Peter Van Wheelden to have it reconditioned. When that was being done, everything was re-wired with Teflon wire. Again, that’s all been reversed now by stripping another Plexi with a close serial number of all its original wiring and using it to once again re-wire Eddie’s # 1 …. That’s why none of that is listed in the specs either !

Finally, mixing back in in the John Suhr ( v2 fat cap and other mods ) we get this from Dave Friedman ( the most recent of the truly reliable source ) to have seen and worked on the amp.

- split cathode V1a 250uF/820,V1b .68/820
- all coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
- bright cap on volume pot 0,005uF
- 470k mixer resistors
- 500pF mixer bypass cap
- bypass cap on V2a is .68uF and a 220uf to 470uf
- 33k/500pF tone stack combo
- 100k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
- 220k bias splitter resistors
- 0.1uF cap on presence control
- .022uf output couplers
- 47pf on PI

Drake 2.0 inch output transformer ….

Dave also is a little more specific on “the filtering”, which is:

2) 100uf's f & t in series mains
2) 32uf's f & t in series screens
1) 100uf lcr phase inverter
1) Dual 33 x 33 f & t preamp

* Dave’s last comments are to relate a quote from both Eddie and Matt Bruck, that finally the amp now sounds “like it did, back in the day” !

What does all this mean to us Axe-Fx-ers that are ( still ) chasing Eddie’s tone ? Well I’ve come to the conclusion nothing really ! There’s no way for anyone except Cliff to compare the latest Specs ( from Dave Friedman ) to the “Brown” amp that was originally modelled ….

IMHO - It’s very likely that while VERY similar, the specs probably weren’t identical …. Plus there are at least three other “items” that in Suhr & Friedman’s opinion are hardly inconsequential !

The 6CA7 Tubes ! From everything I read, they NEVER came stock in a Marshall. They’re similar to an EL-34, but different enough that the change in tone would be both considerable and noticeable …. Evidently they’re about as close as you can get to melding a 6L6 and EL-34 ? It’s got the bigger low end ( like a KT77, but not the brittle top end that they have ! ); it stays smoother like the EL-34. They are said to be “quicker” in their dynamic response ( more like a 6L6 ) too.

Then there’s the whole Variac issue ! When Eddie applied the Variac to his amp and lowered it to 90V, it lowered the B+ ( which we can change ), and he evidently “cranked” the tube bias ( which we can change too ). Friedman seems to think the B+ would be approximately 380dcv and the bias would be between 40 to 50mA. But I’m guessing that’s not all that a Variac changes …?

In fact, I have NO IDEA everything that it does do ? About the only other thing I’ve been able to ferret is that it lowers the voltage of the tube heaters and some speculate that might be what actually shortens the tube(s) life ?

Here’s where Friedman said, we have no way of simulating a Variac with the parameters Cliff has currently exposed. You would theorize that his modelling process took all that into account, but based on the defaults of the Brown Amp in the Axe-Fx, I’m not so sure ?

Last but definitely not least …, Eddie’s effects chain ! We know that prior to the amp ( however it was spec’ed out ), he used his Phaser & Flanger. Plus various EQ’s ( with a frown curve ), and an Echoplex EP-3 ( which provided both some additional mid-&-gain boosting ). And don’t forget the additional highs that would have been tamed by the capacitance of the cable length(s) ! In the early days he supposedly used a 30 footer from the guitar to the first effect …, plus what’s in between each effect, and then from his pedalboard back to the amp ?

 

[nitro]

glip22,Steve Fryette explained to me that Edwards plexi was closer to 69-70 spec when he had the amp.The transformer Steve put in was a pittbull transformer.

 

[yngzaklynch]

You guys are crazy

 

[glip22]

glip22,Steve Fryette explained to me that Edwards plexi was closer to 69-70 spec when he had the amp.The transformer Steve put in was a pittbull transformer.

There's no doubt the amp saw changes. To what extent during a given time frame seems to be the open question.

 

[rupe]

What stock Plexi can achieve the gain levels on Van halen 1(first album),none...Unless a mod or something in front.Look at all the guitarist in the 70s and 80s using marshall plexis did any of them have the gain that Edward did,no....

What are these "massive gain levels" on the first album you speak of?? The speakers in your Nova must be blown, 'cause I'm not hearing it. Listen to the isolated tracks; it sounds like a dimed plexi and it's actually kind of thin. I'm convinced the unique sound achieved on that record had more to do with the way it was recorded/produced. Listen to the early live bootlegs; the tone is killer but hardly "high-gain".

 

[nitro]

Rupe so what's your answer,definitely more gain on vh1 then the rest of the van halen catalog. Are you laughing and clapping because your not sure or don't know.who said the gain levels were massive,more then a stock Plexi that's for sure.I know you come here to learn which is fine.

 

[chumbucket]

I LOVE this discussion is all I am saying. This is like arguing football teams and I live in LA so I have no team to argue about so this is it!

Don't you guys have some kind of Kiss football team now?

 

[nitro]

I like when I see guys here get frustrated when it comes to van halen,they make it harder then it really is might be their age...

 

[tubortski]

maybe it's all illusion.....maybe it's all slight of hand....maybe it IS the fingers

It's Illuminati

Try and work that into a conversation

So how about that Soldano Hot Rod 25? Nice tone eh?

It even sounds awesome at the lowest volume... (note: I don't need this amp)

On topic: The passion you guys have discussing this is amazing. I hope Eddie never joins RT.... nah, that would be killer..... or maybe not?

 

[311boogieman]

So how about that Soldano Hot Rod 25? Nice tone eh?

Pretty rockin. I wonder if Mike put some sort of variac capability in there?


Wait.

It's funny, you and I have been on a similar tone quest recently. I've been looking at Soldano amps (again) recently but may not want the 100watter. The HR 25 looks appealing. I'm also thinking of selling my Petrucci and trying out a Suhr.

I don't know if you did it on purpose but the HammerJack pic in your sig fuchs with peoples eyes

I like it.

 

[Chubtone]

A few years back John Suhr posted in a discussion of Ed's Marshall over at TGP; if I recall correctly his comment was that the amp was bone stock when he serviced it in the nineties, with the exception of a tiny tweak that didn't affect the gain structure and which anyone could do. Most tellingly he also commented that the condition of the solder joints indicated that it had never BEEN modded at any time.

Of course being TGP the amp police descended on Mr Suhr, basically accusing him of not knowing anything about amps or tone or Van Halen. Then everybody started arguing about the super-secret modifications Jose Arredondo had done to the amp, while one of the world's most respected amp-builders - who had literally had the amp open on his workbench - got ignored. It was hilarious.

I remember that thread

I remember the comment about the untouched solder joints in the preamp section, but he did say something about an added part which adds bass to the first channel. He wanted to keep it to himself though, but apparently Ralle from the metroamp forum knows what it is...

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41399

I don't know, I have no reason to believe it wasn't a great sounding super lead with a master (which Suhr did say was a possibility) and a few small tweaks...played by EVH...

Here is an email a former RT member shared with me and it discusses the "insignificant" little differences in Ed's amp that the techs that have been inside it but don't want to talk about. They don't want to talk about it, but they include it on their "stock" plexi type builds. I will not divulge the info as I promised this member I wouldn't but the idea of EVH's stock plexi and the techs that have looked at it, well, you will get the idea. Someone mentioned that the Friedman Metro and the Suhr SL68 both get that early VH tone. Hmmm, wonder why? Just a stock plexi, nothing to see here, move along.

And do I blame those guys? Heck no! I would do the same thing if I had been entrusted to look inside that amp. And rupe mentioned earlier that Jose wasn't very forthcoming when John Suhr asked him some questions in the past. How weird. We all know these amp gurus love to openly share their ideas and secrets with other techs as often as possible.

"BTW, Dave Frieman dropped some knowledge on me that I want to share with you, but I really, really, really need you to keep this to yourself. Ed's main Plexi had a __________. This doesn't seem like much, since all it's really doing is ________, as you can ___________ over instead of the standard _____________________ .

However, what it does more than just ________ is to __________. I don't really understand why it does, but it allows you to ________________ without ____________.

If you do this to your Peacemaker or Super Leads, you will hear a HUGE difference in tone; it's that last little 10% of the early VH tone that you hear in the Metro-Friedman and the Suhr SL-68 that no one else is coming close to, which I suspect is why he wants it kept on the down-low. I don't want to bite the hand thats been feeding me, so to speak, so I appreciate your descretion."

 

[mentoneman]

the amazing part of that tone was how templeman and landee engineered and mixed it into the first 4 albums. they took a distorted marshall and made it the biggest baddest rock tone anyone had ever heard.

i have the pasedena bootleg recorded right on the eve of the first VH album so eddie was pretty much using his VH I rig and the tone is fundamentaly there... fiery and liquid and as nitro points out not the run of the mill marshall plexi dimed even with a box out front. more loose and spongy.

but the ep-3 preamp and maybe a graphic and phase90 bump, then variac'ed and loaded out with some tape delay....i can buy that as what i'm hearing on the boot, and what templeman and landee captured and finessed the hiss and hash out of and added verb, warmth, and size to.

 

[Chubtone]

I am reading that same thread someone linked to above with Ralle from the Metro forum. Those guys are beyond fanatics. There is a great post from John Suhr late in that thread where he is talking about the same little tweak that I referenced in my above post but that it is mostly stock. I had never read about John's time with that amp either but yeah after reading it, I believe what he said.

 

[bmf5150]

It's a stock plexi but with the 820ohm/.68 on v1b and a 330uf on the v2..other than that you have to variac first stage tube B+ should sit around 240V, fuse at 438V....also it was told to me the Frankie pickup was shorted out and sounded like a single coil!

 

[bmf5150]

EVH likely boated his plexi besides the echoplex but with a EQ or even maybe micro amp

 

[stratotone]

It's kinda funny - I've been using modelling amps off and on for years, and the goal is to have an 'in the room' sound because it sounds too much like a recorded tone. Everyone chases the VH tone and it's a studio/recorded tone, I doubt many of us have heard the amp in person with Ed playing and it not being sound reinforced like at a concert - just the amp sitting there, no mikes, no nothing. just in the room tone. Without hearing that, it's pretty hard to tell how much is studio chicanery/outboard gear and how much is the actual amp, no matter how many stories we hear about it.

I got close enough with my Kemper, personally.

Pete

 

[shgshg]

Well Rupe,let me help you out Jose was Edwards amp tech since 1972

So Ed hired an amp tech when he was 17 years old in high school?

 

[mentoneman]

all i know is after listening to and then chasing that tone from when i started playing the electric guitar in 81, and hearing many players and manufacturers claim they achieved the brown sound and never quite living up to the claims, the first time i stood in a room with victor mason and heard him hit the first few chords on the peacemaker prototype he was designing,

i felt like i'd jumped into a time machine and was listening to eddie's rig live in the studio.