need help switching back to analog/tube on a budget.

[jmp22684]

Hello!

I have $2000 to spend. This is going to be from the sale of my digital rig to an analog rig.

This may be difficult to impossible to pull off, but I would like to try anyways and this is why I thought it would be best to hit up the online communities for advice.

I need midi and don't want a whole bunch on the floor.

The plan is to use something like the Voodoo Labs ground control to a rack mounted loop switcher with all the pedals setup in the rack.

The style of music:

Clean to:
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Jimi Hendrix

Modern:
Bowling for soup
Jimmy eat world

So a clean sound, basic slight drive crunch, modern gain.

Effects I actively use:

Tremolo
Chorus
Delay
Pitch shifters (I use octaves, 5ths, ects.... a pedal with multiple pitch settings options would be sweet if possible)
Wah (I own this)
Some sort of volume boost for solos
Phaser
End of chain volume pedal in the loop (I own a Boss fv 500L for this already)

The plan would be a loop switch in the rack that plays nicely with effects loops if using amp channels for drive. I have always liked the amps distortion vs using the distortion off of the pedals. Though this would limit amps to only units with at least 3 channels: Clean, Crunch, Modern Gain.

I like a tight distortion that isn’t too flabby. Would like something with a warm sound to it that isn’t shrilly or have that ice pick characteristic to it. This put the AC30c2 out of the running as that’s ice pick sound seems to be what it was made for.

I have had:
-Mesa Boogie Roadking: Way to flabby and muddy, couldn’t stand the thing.
-Mesa Boogie Mark V 90watt Combo: Holy crap this thing was ear piercing. Treble and Presence set to absolute zero and it was still painful… just plain painful. Perhaps the head pair with a different cab would have helped but when I ran a floor board into the return on the Mark V it sounded great. This leads me to believe that the ice pick painful sound was not in the cabinet but rather the preamp, as I was bypassing the preamp at this point.
-Line 6 DT50: A great sounding amp I thought, unreliable. I had 3 of these. All at the same time. They all failed. Two of them blew power transformers and one blew a cap.
-Carvin VT50: fantastic clean sound. Worst gain channel I have EVER listened to. I don’t know what they were thinking!

Summary:
Tight gain, warm clean. Clean to crunch to Gain. Again styles range from classic rock and blues to modern 90s rock.
Analog pedals in a rack with a switcher controlled via midi from a pedal such as the Voodoo Ground Control. I often have very little room in front of me and don’t want all the pedals there. I Figure I am looking at about $1000 between the rack loop switcher, Ground Control and a basic 4u rack case.
This leaves a very small budget of $1000 for pedals and an amp.
Ideas?

I was also pleasantly surprised when I saw a guitarist recently on a Blackstar amp. I thought it sounded pretty good and have thought about the ht100 (3 channel head)… but I worry about quality.

Though with this budget I can’t expect much….


I have been using a Line 6 Helix…. I can get it to sound fantastic but often need to spend a lot of time tweaking it. As such my playing has suffered dramatically. I want to get back to the fundamentals but without losing the ability to not need to tap dance on analog pedals. So the idea here is to just get an amp that has my 3 sounds and add the effects via pedals.
So the goal here is to try and build an organized list of all the components needed into a spreadsheet and then purchase.


To add…. There is absolute crap out here for music stores. I am not in an area where I can drive to a store and start trying out amps, this makes all of this much MUCH more difficult. I am relying on forums and YouTube video demos/reviews.

Thank you!

 

[jmp22684]

Thats a consideration... The added cost of an rjm gizmo switcher screws up the budget.

Also why I have been playing with the idea of a single channel amp with a good clean and then get everything from the pedals.

This also means more money into the loop switcher as most have 8 loops but no ability to play nicely with effects loops meaning your down to 7 pedals now.

Kick in some distortion pedals. At very least 2: crunch, modern. Not taking into account stacking pedals for distortion... Though this tends to muddy things up.

Would like room to grow and something like the RJM effects gizmo would be sweet, buts eats most of the budget.

Have been searching ebay, reverb, ect for used gear.

 

[cardinal]

1) for all the FX and switching, you might be able to just use something like the Line 6 M9 or maybe even the Eventide H9 and forget all the fancy switching stuff for pedals.

2) if you must have three channels, I've seen 3-channel Triple Rectos for around $700 on my local craigslist, at least. I've had one and it was a great amp.

3) do you already own a cabinet? If not, you'll probably need to budget at least $400 for a decent one (a terrible cab will make even the fanciest setup sound awful)

 

[nevusofota]

I use pretty much the same effects and prefer midi as well. First off almost any amp can become midi with the RJM mini amp Gizmo. Can be had for about $130 used. You can get an EVH 50w, comes with midi and is 3 channels. I've seen them as low as $600-$700. I currently switch between an EVH and a Bogner Shiva that I use the amp gizmo with to incorporate midi. Get an older Musicomlabs midi pedal switcher, I bought mine for about $250 a few years ago on TGP. Here's my board, basically everything you said you needed. I ditched the separate rack with pedals and switcher because it was just one more thing to carry that I didn't need.




Here's my entire midi rig. Extremely versatile and easy to transport.

 

[nevusofota]

Oh yeah, and.............. welcome back!

 

[godgrinder]

1) for all the FX and switching, you might be able to just use something like the Line 6 M9 or maybe even the Eventide H9 and forget all the fancy switching stuff for pedals.

THIS. Makes zero sense to have a switching system that costs more than your amp and pedals, that's putting the cart before the horse.

In case you think you need all the fancy switching for gigs, just remember that most people in the crowd can't tell whether it's a Boss GT10 or a bunch of Strymons.

 

[GtarLover]

For a budget option, it's hard to beat the used EVH listed above. Personally I'd lean toward a Splawn Quickrod.
I've seen them used for around $1000-$1200.
You get multiple channels, solo boost, and effects loop...all foot switchable. The newer models have "better" loops, "better cleans, more options, etc and will cost a bit more. Just great amps. No midi option on board, yet also as mentioned the Gizmo will make it so.

$2000 is a tight budget for gigging. I mean, for me, I NEED to have backup gear as well. So you spend $2000 on your rig, if anything happens you're in trouble. Just saying...

Good luck with the search. There are good bargains to be had AND there's some excellent gear available these days.

 

[cardinal]

^ $2000 should be ok, it's just the OP is looking for some complex stuff.

A DSL50 is maybe $500 on craigslist. A cab is maybe another $400. An M9 is around $250. And then just run the racks at GC to find a guitar or two that plays well and you're set. I wouldn't worry about a backup cab, and honestly if the M9 went down you almost surely could still get through the set just fine. A backup head isn't a bad idea, but if it's just the backup you could get away with something even less expensive than the DSL (like a Marshall 3210 or something for $200).

But three channels, MIDI switching and such just gets expensive pretty quick.

 

[Manxmusicman]

Why not look at the Diezel Dmoll. It's got 3 channels, is midi programmable and sounds brilliant, will cover all the ground you need.

Another alternative is the Hughes and Kettner Grandmeister, again midi programmable and has all the onboard effects you need.

 

[kronat]

Why not try out the Kemper ? Your back will thank you every day.

 

[IndyWS6]

H&K Switchblade. Relatively inexpensive, 4 channels, on-board MIDI...

 

[jmp22684]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the suggestions!

Yes... I was trying to put the cart before the horse. I didn't mention that I had also tried a Marshall JVM410h before and surprisingly enjoyed it. I always tried to avoid Marshall because I figured they were one of those slightly over rated companies that was still riding an old reputation. The only reason I tried the Helix at that time was to save my back... and yes Kemper was a consideration. But back to too many options, I just want to play. I am a perfectionist OCD tone hunter and will spend more time trying to make it sound good than playing. I need to be constricted.

I know you'll hear a lot of people say that the tone is in the playing and not the equipment. I get that some what. I have been playing for almost 24 years, jazz studies and improvisation classes, music theory and composition, I was in school to teach music theory and composition at a university... Not tooting but just saying that I can make this statement from an experienced and educated background: Saying the tone is only in the fingers and not the equipment would be like saying a race car's speed isn't in the engine but in the foot. Sure you need to be good at playing and you need to be good at driving. But you aren't going to win any races in a stock Geo are ya?

Blackstar, as I mentioned, did surprise me when I saw someone playing one this past weekend. It was one of their lower end models but I was still impressed and wanted to see what their higher end Series One amps were capable of.

I decided to bite the bullet and go for a road trip yesterday to Sweetwater. Packed up the guitar, picked up a Coffee and went for a cruise....

I called on the way and let them know what I was planning on and they grabbed what they had that was midi capable and included at least 3 channels. I spent the entire day there. Nick took me on a tour as well which was a blast. Went through the studios, auditorium (this room is SWEET!!), etc.... I may need to move and get a job there. They have a swirly slide from the sales department to the main floor.... that's worth the move!!

Again the Voodoo Lab or RJM Gizmo are something I know of and this was a deciding factor. It was also factored in as an added expence. Amp with midi budget vs Amp w/ out midi budget minus the cost of the midi channel switchers.

Back to the point... I went ADD there for a moment.

These are the amps I tried out:

So I had them grab me a nice 2x12 cabinet. I have a POS 4x12 at home that I need to replace and was thinking of purchasing a cheap 2x12 while I was there. I instead decided that I needed a good control group. With the nicer cabinet I wouldn't be basing my opinion of the amp heads based on a factor I can change later. You wouldn't test drive a nice car with crap tires would you?

Grabbed my custom build ESP ... this was a wonderful accidental purchase. We didn't know if it was authentic. After two weeks of research, lots of dismantaling, and photos and even more research ESP varified this to be a custom build made in Japan for their foriegn market built in the late 80's. So.... yeah I want to show off some guitar porn too:

Where do these squirrels keep coming from!?!

Anyways:

-The H&K I really enjoyed!! Fantastic clean sound and the crunch and lead channels were excellent!! They were both excellent amps and would recommend to anyone now.

-The 5150 was alright, I dropped that option as soon as I noticed that two channels shared the same volume. I need to switch channels with a consistent volume. I swapped between the two channels and noticed a huge volume spike and dropped that option from the running right away. The larger version with more control is out of my price range at the moment.

-The Blackstar Series One amps: 100 watts each. One was the 2 channel with EL34's and the other was the 4 channel with 6L6's. These amps both sounded great as well. I was pretty impressed. I did stick most of the testing on the 4 channel 6L6 as this offered a bit more room for EQ options and a few different drive options.

The cleans weren't as punchy as the cleans from the H&K. The H&K did have a TON of dynamic responce on the clean channel. But I will say it was REALLY REALLY close on the clean channel so I didn't let that become a deciding factor.

Crunch and OD2: Great sound. React well to volume pot on my guitar. Not too fizzy at all like the Mesa Boogie Road King I had, but still a ton of crunch were needed for modern rock but dialed back well for a softer break up for older stuff.

The OD1 channel was.... unique. As I raised the gain and volume it was almost compressed or.... I don't know. Tough to explain. I did notice it sounded different after about 20 minutes of playing on the amp and switching back to that channel. Tubes need to be burned in a bit? I don't know. I am still learning. All in all the H&K and Blackstar seemed right on par with eachother every step of the way. The gains were both on par and the cleans were as well.

At the end and after many MANY hours of playing, A/B switching and probably pissing off the employees I decided to go with the Blackstar. Two reasons I chose the Blackstar over the H&Ks, and it was tough!!

1. The lead and crunch on the H&K shared and EQ. Two of the channels on the BS S1 share an EQ as well. On the H&K I noticed that I really wanted to tweak the EQ between the crunch and lead channels. This isn't an option when playing out. I need to activate the channel and it needs to sound good. So lack of control/consistancy was one of the factors.

2. This is going to seem somewhat silly but it is a consideration I had to take into account. The H&K were respectively $750 and $900 new where as the BS S1 1046L6 was $1700 new. They gave me the B Stock price on the Blackstar which brought this down to $1200. It was more amp for the money. I noticed no physical defects what so ever, oh and I searched!, and it came with a 2 year full warranty directly from Sweetwater rather than having to deal with the manufacturer.

So at the end of the day the Blackstar seemed like the best option.

I do need to get a 2x12 cabinet as well as come up with a solution for effects still. At the moment I am using the Helix for the effects and midi operations. I am using no modelling. This pedal does seem like over kill for this and I plan on selling it anyways to help recoup monetary losses. It is also not a true bypass effects processor. I do believe something like the M13 is true bypass however I seem to have hit a snag in using something like that for midi control as it is quite limited. The Blackstar only accepts program changes.

What I want to do is this:

two parts to a song for this example:

1. Clean, very very slight delay, chorus, little reverb

2. Lead: Mild crunch, no chorus, a bit more delay, volume boost.

I want to start playing in the clean channel with the delay and chorus on. Hit a footswitch and enter the crunch channel, turn off the chorus, switch delay (either changing the parameters of the current pedal or to an entirely different pedal), activate the volume boost. Hit the switch again and return to the clean channel with all the effects returning to their original state.

What I have done as a work around on the helix:

Snapshots set with the chorus on or off, delay parameters, volume boost ect....

Then using instant midi changes when selecting a snapshot I send a program change to the amp:

Snapshot one:
Program Change: 0
Chorus on
Delay parameters set
Reverb
Volume boost off

Snapshot two:
Program Change: 3
Chorus off
Delay parameters change
Reverb off (I often add small delay to make up for reverb to avoid loos in mix during leads)
Volume boost on

So at the moment this Helix works perfectly... But again it isn't true bypass and is really an expensive over kill piece of gear. I know that I am using more than one button in this example, but that is the beauty of the snapshots. In a typical processor you cannot set an effect to more than one switch. So you would need to bend over backwards.

I was thinking this however: Could I find a midi floor controller that can perhaps send 2 program changes with the same button. Light on PC: 0, Light off PC: 1 for example. Then get something like the m13 or a rack unit thats true bypass and use the midi board to send midi commands to that as well. I know the m13 is a floor board but its limited midi functions mean more tap dancing... so why not rack something like that and send it messages from something that's good at what it does: Midi.

So now I am looking at these options so I can sell the Helix.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to present everything I was doing and how I was pulling it off to find out if there are units that can do this for me other than the Helix.

 

[nevusofota]

jk

Glad you found what works for ya!

 

[jmp22684]

Thanks!

A cab is definitely needed soon. My cheapy has a bit too much low end to it and ear piercing highs. Trying to EQ those out for now with a PEQ. Fighting the cab is difficult.. Often a losing battle.