Not even arrived yet, but tube options for Tourmaster4100?
- Thread starter kannibul
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A
Anonymous
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i havent tried anything, and if you search my posts for tubes, you'll see some responses i got from bruce on it.
basically, the gist was, power tubes make up almost a non factor in your sound (aside from the recommended tubes within spec and the rate at which they break up at higher volumes), they arent really worth experimenting with. he basically brought it round in the end of the email by saying something to the effect of "your guitar, pickups, speakers and other gear have a much more dramatic impact on your overall tone compared to power tubes". thats what i got from it anyways.
some people might buy it, some might not.
so, i grabbed a backup quad of ruby 6L6 from Guitar center and pretty much i've been experimenting with preamp tubes and haven't really given my power tubes much thought beyond the power grid settings.
it's a great amp, the more i play it and learn it, the more i love it.
one tip i will impart, if you want some REALLy biting mids in OD2 channel, get a simple 7 band eq pedal, boost the mids around 800 about halfway to the top, and turn your mids on your amp down almost to about 7:00. incredible sound there. very vocal, and i love what it adds depth wise.
i'm still looking for the right parametric eq to try. i hear good things about the presonus.
back to the power tubes, the manual says kt66's will work, but bruce advised against it in the email.
basically, the gist was, power tubes make up almost a non factor in your sound (aside from the recommended tubes within spec and the rate at which they break up at higher volumes), they arent really worth experimenting with. he basically brought it round in the end of the email by saying something to the effect of "your guitar, pickups, speakers and other gear have a much more dramatic impact on your overall tone compared to power tubes". thats what i got from it anyways.
some people might buy it, some might not.
so, i grabbed a backup quad of ruby 6L6 from Guitar center and pretty much i've been experimenting with preamp tubes and haven't really given my power tubes much thought beyond the power grid settings.
it's a great amp, the more i play it and learn it, the more i love it.
one tip i will impart, if you want some REALLy biting mids in OD2 channel, get a simple 7 band eq pedal, boost the mids around 800 about halfway to the top, and turn your mids on your amp down almost to about 7:00. incredible sound there. very vocal, and i love what it adds depth wise.
i'm still looking for the right parametric eq to try. i hear good things about the presonus.
back to the power tubes, the manual says kt66's will work, but bruce advised against it in the email.
I'm assuming he's referring to different tubes w/in the same tube category. EL34's sound different than 6l6's. I can hear the difference on my Renegade when I switch back and forth.
But, level of breakup aside, he must be saying that replacing EL34's with other EL34's won't really change your life much as long as all of the tubes are working properly.
I have noticed a difference in the past when changing between different brands of tubes. But to be fair, I changed pre and power at the same time so I can't comment on which the tonal change could be attributed to.
But, level of breakup aside, he must be saying that replacing EL34's with other EL34's won't really change your life much as long as all of the tubes are working properly.
I have noticed a difference in the past when changing between different brands of tubes. But to be fair, I changed pre and power at the same time so I can't comment on which the tonal change could be attributed to.
A
Anonymous
Guest
i hate posting long posts!!!
anyways, thats what confused me about what he said.
mainly because i've played a renegade and loved the halfway setting (actually about the 11:00 setting) tube mix sound. and distinctly, could tell the difference between the 34's and 6l6's in there.
according to my earlier post about my TM retube, yes, i was completely contradictory, but as you can see above, i was merely passing along what bruce said when i asked him about kt66's and if they will harm the TM. i will try to find the post where i put his email up for discussion.
i didnt mean to confuse at all, not at all. DEFINITELY, you can hear/feel a difference in power tubes (as i posted about in my other tourmaster retube post about the difference between the ruby's and the GTs). obviously, im still pretty new to tube amps.....and honestly, when i read what bruce read, i was kinda like "WTF?!?" but then again, thinking back to some of the posts i've read of his, they usually DO come across to ME kind of vague and cryptic.. (which i mainly attribute to MY OWN ignorance of tube amps and MY general lack of intelligence) hahahha.
i can say this....i missed out on a LOT of fun/headaches/questing over the past 20 years. i was a solid state amp / tube preamp guy for a long long time, and even though i owned at one point or another a few different tube amps...i just didn't "get it" with them (how to dial them in, what to listen for and how to "play" with them and "interact" with them. with the hybrid rig, it was easy..i programmed a sound....i had my OWN sound, but it was never the sound I HEARD or really WANTED...but it was my own.
now im getting pretty close to the sound i always wanted. and i never thought it was gonna be a tube amp sound! im just getting old i guess!! hahah
anyways, im curious too what kt66's will sound like in there. i know he also said the power grid settings will only work properly with 5881/6L6 family tubes.
something about
anyway, here's what bruce had to say
"Not sure why you feel the need to change to a different tube. I would
understand if you had a specific preference but it doesn't sound like you
do?
You can use another tube that is in the 6L6/5881 family that has similar
biasing requirements. The Chinese TAD6L6 should be fine. The issue you
will find is that, even though you can adjust for proper current in the
high power mode, the other lower power bias settings are preset and some
tube types may not "track" properly. Also, some tubes draw quite a bit
more filament current that can surely stress the power transformer. Check
the filament current draw of the tubes you may want to try. Don't choose
one that draws .....say 10% max more. For example, a single 5881 draws .9A
while the KT66 draws 1.3A. If you install four KT66s, they will draw about
5.2A compared the set of 5881s at 3.6A. Probably not a great idea due to
the potential power transformer stress. Of all the things you can do to
"tweak" your tone, power tubes can be quite expensive and give you the
least amount of satisfaction. I would say the "cost vs happiness" ratio is
fairly low when it comes to power tubes. Speakers, strings, pickups, etc.
can have a much more dramatic effect than changing power tubes."
i posted the email cause i couldn't find the post.
also, a good source for TM tube info from a previous post....
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=55716
apparently, the TM can run on any tube, but the power grid settings wont work?
anyone?
anyways, thats what confused me about what he said.
mainly because i've played a renegade and loved the halfway setting (actually about the 11:00 setting) tube mix sound. and distinctly, could tell the difference between the 34's and 6l6's in there.
according to my earlier post about my TM retube, yes, i was completely contradictory, but as you can see above, i was merely passing along what bruce said when i asked him about kt66's and if they will harm the TM. i will try to find the post where i put his email up for discussion.
i didnt mean to confuse at all, not at all. DEFINITELY, you can hear/feel a difference in power tubes (as i posted about in my other tourmaster retube post about the difference between the ruby's and the GTs). obviously, im still pretty new to tube amps.....and honestly, when i read what bruce read, i was kinda like "WTF?!?" but then again, thinking back to some of the posts i've read of his, they usually DO come across to ME kind of vague and cryptic.. (which i mainly attribute to MY OWN ignorance of tube amps and MY general lack of intelligence) hahahha.
i can say this....i missed out on a LOT of fun/headaches/questing over the past 20 years. i was a solid state amp / tube preamp guy for a long long time, and even though i owned at one point or another a few different tube amps...i just didn't "get it" with them (how to dial them in, what to listen for and how to "play" with them and "interact" with them. with the hybrid rig, it was easy..i programmed a sound....i had my OWN sound, but it was never the sound I HEARD or really WANTED...but it was my own.
now im getting pretty close to the sound i always wanted. and i never thought it was gonna be a tube amp sound! im just getting old i guess!! hahah
anyways, im curious too what kt66's will sound like in there. i know he also said the power grid settings will only work properly with 5881/6L6 family tubes.
something about
anyway, here's what bruce had to say
"Not sure why you feel the need to change to a different tube. I would
understand if you had a specific preference but it doesn't sound like you
do?
You can use another tube that is in the 6L6/5881 family that has similar
biasing requirements. The Chinese TAD6L6 should be fine. The issue you
will find is that, even though you can adjust for proper current in the
high power mode, the other lower power bias settings are preset and some
tube types may not "track" properly. Also, some tubes draw quite a bit
more filament current that can surely stress the power transformer. Check
the filament current draw of the tubes you may want to try. Don't choose
one that draws .....say 10% max more. For example, a single 5881 draws .9A
while the KT66 draws 1.3A. If you install four KT66s, they will draw about
5.2A compared the set of 5881s at 3.6A. Probably not a great idea due to
the potential power transformer stress. Of all the things you can do to
"tweak" your tone, power tubes can be quite expensive and give you the
least amount of satisfaction. I would say the "cost vs happiness" ratio is
fairly low when it comes to power tubes. Speakers, strings, pickups, etc.
can have a much more dramatic effect than changing power tubes."
i posted the email cause i couldn't find the post.
also, a good source for TM tube info from a previous post....
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=55716
apparently, the TM can run on any tube, but the power grid settings wont work?
anyone?
Len Rabinowitz
New member
The power grid will only work with the power tubes that are listed in the manual-5881, 6L6, or KT66.
Here's a suggestion. Plug it in. Play it stock. For a while. A long while. Turn some knobs. Play some more. Then go out and gig with it. Then if you're really feeling adventurous...change batteries in your wireless unit from duracel to energizer or vis-versa. These kind of posts are killin' me. How bout' trustin' that maybe, just maybe, the guy that designed the amp knew what the hell he was doin' when he put the schematic together. Killin' me Smalls. This rant will self destruct in 3, 2, 1...
briguy73":1zqcajvo said:
I tend to agree. I've seen posts in other forums re: other amps where people haven't even gotten the amp yet and they're talking about modding it with new speakers and tubes.
How do you even know what your modding the amp from if you haven't played it. If you've played it and don't like the tone, why are you buying it? I get the idea of just wanting to tweak and mod for the fun of it. But don't you still want to know what the original function of the amp is?
I don't consider tubes to be a major mod. But the point still remains. Knowing the stock version of any amp will only let you fine tune what mods you make down the road.
Just a suggestion.
TC Don
New member
I found briguy73's reply to be refreshing and kinda funny, good post that probably echoed many other's thoughts. I agree in general terms with his statement. Why buy a 5881 or 6L6 if you really, really want EL84? This post addresses the idea of buying tubes to replace stock, and not neccesarily for the fun of it. Maybe, kind of...
When I purchased my TM4212, I also checked into power tubes and 12ax7s. Not necessarily as a mod issue, more of a back-up issue. Where I live, if I blow a tube I will not be going down to the local store the same day to find a replacement.
Purchased some SED "winged C" 6L6GC tubes, as well as a number of 12ax7s such as Tube Store's Preferred Series, Penta Penta 7025F as the V4 cathode follower and a Sovtek LPS matched for the phase inverter V8. Already had a few others lying around, Tungsol etc.
Now I have backup tubes, the stock tubes, that can be used in a pinch. Always bring some of these spares along for the ride. That quick access biasing is killer for such situations, by the way.
Maybe you have seen through my screen, and you realize the "spare" concept was also allowing me to tweak. So be it, I get to tweak just a bit and the spare excuse is pretty good. 12ax7's may be more about tweaking than the power tubes, others have different opinions.
Lastly, and let's not forget this part, I am confident that you are gonna dig your tones from these 5881s (or 6L6s) coming out of this amp. Back to the original point, give it a swing for a while and I predict that you will be a happy camper! I continue to be pleased with my 4212, the more I use it the more I like it.
When I purchased my TM4212, I also checked into power tubes and 12ax7s. Not necessarily as a mod issue, more of a back-up issue. Where I live, if I blow a tube I will not be going down to the local store the same day to find a replacement.
Purchased some SED "winged C" 6L6GC tubes, as well as a number of 12ax7s such as Tube Store's Preferred Series, Penta Penta 7025F as the V4 cathode follower and a Sovtek LPS matched for the phase inverter V8. Already had a few others lying around, Tungsol etc.
Now I have backup tubes, the stock tubes, that can be used in a pinch. Always bring some of these spares along for the ride. That quick access biasing is killer for such situations, by the way.
Maybe you have seen through my screen, and you realize the "spare" concept was also allowing me to tweak. So be it, I get to tweak just a bit and the spare excuse is pretty good. 12ax7's may be more about tweaking than the power tubes, others have different opinions.
Lastly, and let's not forget this part, I am confident that you are gonna dig your tones from these 5881s (or 6L6s) coming out of this amp. Back to the original point, give it a swing for a while and I predict that you will be a happy camper! I continue to be pleased with my 4212, the more I use it the more I like it.
A
Anonymous
Guest
briguy73":3vmj6xbs said:
i guess you'll have to excuse some of us for being less knowledgeable, jaded/experienced, not in the "circle" types for wanting to learn, experiment and feel like we're a part of something.
apparently the "egnater" line of amps forum was designed for everyone that knows everything about egnater amps to talk shit about the new people (to tubes, or the amps in general) that don't, or to just blatantly ignore us while you all shake your heads because we dont own mod series, or haven't been able to kiss Bruce's ass enough to get a straight answer from him.
THE MANUAL CLEARLY says it can use kt66's. when i asked about this TO BRUCE directly, he recommended NOT using it. above, i claimed my own ignorance as an attempt to brush this off.
now im just going to say it, since i beat around the bush above.... he came off to as high and mighty, curt, arrogant, and not helpful OR clear, and didnt answer one fucking question i had, but made it a point to fucking lecture me on what i should be doing/not doing in his opinion (like im some 15 year old that just blew 2000 grand on his amp to ask him dumb questions about it, AND, even so, fuck that line of thinking too!) so, the paradox continues. some of you are allowed to know things, but none of other people are. don't get me wrong, i love my amp, but it's just a stepping stone for now. mainly because i got the feeling that when i needed clear answers about it, i wont get them, so why bother.
that post i quoted, and posts like it, come across as shitty attempts to be witty. and quite honestly, if you know something about your amp, and dont care to share it or read posts from someone that DOESN"T(like what seems to be the general concensus as of late), then fine, dont post or comment.
but dont make someone else feel shitty about asking an honest question.
fuck me if i wouldn't hate to have 90% of you pricks for a guitar teacher..or even worse, a parent, or grandparent to my kids.
sincerely, 36 year old, experienced guitar player that knows nothing
George I.
Len Rabinowitz
New member
I do agree that Briguy's post came across as a little sarcastic and as kind of a jab. I do have agree that I find the whole modding thing a little weird. If you don't like how something was made, why buy it, particularly with such a range of things available today?
In Yeti's defense, I DO NOT regard tubes as modding. Anybody who buys a tube amp should know how to change and bias tubes. Egnater amps are clearly designed to be flexible and to be retubed and re-biased by the end user. While I am not huge on this myself, different tubes do provide different flavors. The Tourmaster is a hugely flexible amp; What is wrong with playing around and asking questions about its tube flexibility?
I also agree about the manual. I refer to that manual a lot, and I trust what it says. The Tourmaster manual could use some improvement. For example, I wish they would change the layouts of the suggested settings for the combo since the amp is upside down in the combo. It's confusing. If the manual says you can use KT66's, I would tend to trust that, and it is a little frustrating if Bruce says something else. Maybe he just forgot, or maybe he was saying that you can use it, but the others are better. He has always been helpful to me. I remember it coming up in another thread that the tubes do more than what is listed in the manual and that is frustrating also.
If you are not a Tourmaster owner- It's a complex amp. I like that, but it took me two years to feel like I was the master of it. If Yeti is new to the Tourmaster and tube amps, cut him a little slack, Jack! Like he says, if you don't like what he is saying, don't read it and don't post!
Peace.
In Yeti's defense, I DO NOT regard tubes as modding. Anybody who buys a tube amp should know how to change and bias tubes. Egnater amps are clearly designed to be flexible and to be retubed and re-biased by the end user. While I am not huge on this myself, different tubes do provide different flavors. The Tourmaster is a hugely flexible amp; What is wrong with playing around and asking questions about its tube flexibility?
I also agree about the manual. I refer to that manual a lot, and I trust what it says. The Tourmaster manual could use some improvement. For example, I wish they would change the layouts of the suggested settings for the combo since the amp is upside down in the combo. It's confusing. If the manual says you can use KT66's, I would tend to trust that, and it is a little frustrating if Bruce says something else. Maybe he just forgot, or maybe he was saying that you can use it, but the others are better. He has always been helpful to me. I remember it coming up in another thread that the tubes do more than what is listed in the manual and that is frustrating also.
If you are not a Tourmaster owner- It's a complex amp. I like that, but it took me two years to feel like I was the master of it. If Yeti is new to the Tourmaster and tube amps, cut him a little slack, Jack! Like he says, if you don't like what he is saying, don't read it and don't post!
Peace.
Len Rabinowitz
New member
A clarification:
My understanding, from earlier posts, is that in the Tourmaster you can use any power tube that will fit in those sockets and that is properly biased, but the power grid will only work with those listed in the manual.
My understanding, from earlier posts, is that in the Tourmaster you can use any power tube that will fit in those sockets and that is properly biased, but the power grid will only work with those listed in the manual.
IMO, no need for rudeness or defensiveness. It's all just good conversations.
But for me the reality is what I stated before: mod the amp and tweak the tone with tubes, speakers and anything else you can think of, but why not play it for a while in its stock form before you start tweaking???? I don't really understand the concept of being set on modding/tweaking an amp that I have no hands on experience with. How do you even know what's wrong with it????
But if it's yours, you can do anything you want to it.
But for me the reality is what I stated before: mod the amp and tweak the tone with tubes, speakers and anything else you can think of, but why not play it for a while in its stock form before you start tweaking???? I don't really understand the concept of being set on modding/tweaking an amp that I have no hands on experience with. How do you even know what's wrong with it????
But if it's yours, you can do anything you want to it.
