not sure if this is slaving an amp but this is what i want

[turmoil]

i'd like to make a W/D setup using two guitar amps. I want to take the preamp signal from one and have it powered by another tube amp. This is how i'm thinking it would work.

run my dry signal into the Powerball, loaded into one 4x12, and then have the EFX send going into the input of the Triple Rectifier and use that amp's power section. I could then run my effects (delay, reverb, etc) into the EFX loop of the Recto and run that wet signal through another 4x12.

would this work the way i'm thinking it would? would i run the powerball's preamp signal into the EFX Return of the Recto instead?

mainly, i just want to use the Recto as the "power amp section" and the Engl as the preamp section. how can i do this?? thanks!

 

[Gainfreak]

i'd like to make a W/D setup using two guitar amps. I want to take the preamp signal from one and have it powered by another tube amp. This is how i'm thinking it would work.

run my dry signal into the Powerball, loaded into one 4x12, and then have the EFX send going into the input of the Triple Rectifier and use that amp's power section. I could then run my effects (delay, reverb, etc) into the EFX loop of the Recto and run that wet signal through another 4x12.

would this work the way i'm thinking it would? would i run the powerball's preamp signal into the EFX Return of the Recto instead?

mainly, i just want to use the Recto as the "power amp section" and the Engl as the preamp section. how can i do this?? thanks!

What you are aiming for is slaving for sure.

The best way to do this is to plug into your Engl and take the Engl's effects send and send that signal to your effects and then the o/p of the effects would go to the return of the Recto. You would control the volume via the Engl's loop or at the effects privided it has an i/p o/p level.
Hope this helps!

 

[turmoil]

that sounds great!! It makes perfect sense!
my question now is, will I be using the clean channel on the recto for this particular setup? So, I will be pushing the output volume or power section harder than the actual recto preamp.

 

[Gainfreak]

that sounds great!! It makes perfect sense!
my question now is, will I be using the clean channel on the recto for this particular setup? So, I will be pushing the output volume or power section harder than the actual recto preamp.

If you send your signal to the effects return of the recto you will only be getting the power section of the recto.....all of it so you need to be careful with the Engls effects send level otherwise it's like having the volume on 10 lol. Its the cleanest way to slave because if you send the signal to the guitar i/p of the recto, you will be adding the preamp section as well as power and this usually sounds like ass on high gain amps lol!

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I dont see the W/D side of things.

If you come out of the send of the powerball doesn't that prevent any signal from getting to the powerballs power amp meaning no sound comes out of the speaker its connected to? It is a series loop correct?

Using the In on the rectifiers loop will bypass its preamp completely and you will be using it as a poweramp, it wont matter what channel it is set to.

what I get from your description is basically you want a regular mono amp set up except you are using the rectifiers poweramp for its color rather than the powerballs own.

If you actually want W/D why not get a guitar splitter such as the lehle p split, split the signal into both amps, choose one amp to have the effects in its loop and send each amp to different speakers, either in the same cab or separate cabs.

 

[Gainfreak]

I dont see the W/D side of things.

If you come out of the send of the powerball doesn't that prevent any signal from getting to the powerballs power amp meaning no sound comes out of the speaker its connected to? It is a series loop correct?

Using the In on the rectifiers loop will bypass its preamp completely and you will be using it as a poweramp, it wont matter what channel it is set to.

what I get from your description is basically you want a regular mono amp set up except you are using the rectifiers poweramp for its color rather than the powerballs own.

If you actually want W/D why not get a guitar splitter such as the lehle p split, split the signal into both amps, choose one amp to have the effects in its loop and send each amp to different speakers, either in the same cab or separate cabs.

Good call. There wont be any dry unless the signal is split somewhere. With that said, I don't ever use dry, so that's why I didn't catch that lol

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I dont see the W/D side of things.

If you come out of the send of the powerball doesn't that prevent any signal from getting to the powerballs power amp meaning no sound comes out of the speaker its connected to? It is a series loop correct?

Using the In on the rectifiers loop will bypass its preamp completely and you will be using it as a poweramp, it wont matter what channel it is set to.

what I get from your description is basically you want a regular mono amp set up except you are using the rectifiers poweramp for its color rather than the powerballs own.

If you actually want W/D why not get a guitar splitter such as the lehle p split, split the signal into both amps, choose one amp to have the effects in its loop and send each amp to different speakers, either in the same cab or separate cabs.

Good call. There wont be any dry unless the signal is split somewhere. With that said, I don't ever use dry, so that's why I didn't catch that lol

It just so happens my last suggestion is what my rig has recently evolved into so its all fresh in my mind.

I failed to mention that running two different amps together thickens the tone in a really nice way. If your stuff was my stuff, this is what i would do, it uses all of the components you have to their fullest potential but does then require two mics when playing live.

If you really are dead set on the powerball pre and the recto poweramp than just follow gainfreaks advice. IMO if your gonna carry two amp heads around use them to their fullest potential.

 

[turmoil]

I dont see the W/D side of things.

If you come out of the send of the powerball doesn't that prevent any signal from getting to the powerballs power amp meaning no sound comes out of the speaker its connected to? It is a series loop correct?

Using the In on the rectifiers loop will bypass its preamp completely and you will be using it as a poweramp, it wont matter what channel it is set to.

what I get from your description is basically you want a regular mono amp set up except you are using the rectifiers poweramp for its color rather than the powerballs own.

If you actually want W/D why not get a guitar splitter such as the lehle p split, split the signal into both amps, choose one amp to have the effects in its loop and send each amp to different speakers, either in the same cab or separate cabs.

that makes sense. I actually have a voodoo labs amp switcher so could I use that? Run my guitar in and then thhe signal to amp A and then the signal to amp B with effects in the loop. This would give me the W/D? But this config. Would use both amp tones together though which is kind of what I don't want to do.

 

[Gainfreak]

Wait a sec.... Thought about this again. If you run the powerball through 1 cab it will be dry. The second cab of the slave with the recto will be wet ...so yes... It can be setup for w/d

hookup looks like this

Powerball into cab one effects send--->to effects------Effects into--> recto's return.. recto hooked up to another speaker cab and will have effects. the end result will be dry powerball tone and wet powerball tone together!

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I dont see the W/D side of things.

If you come out of the send of the powerball doesn't that prevent any signal from getting to the powerballs power amp meaning no sound comes out of the speaker its connected to? It is a series loop correct?

Using the In on the rectifiers loop will bypass its preamp completely and you will be using it as a poweramp, it wont matter what channel it is set to.

what I get from your description is basically you want a regular mono amp set up except you are using the rectifiers poweramp for its color rather than the powerballs own.

If you actually want W/D why not get a guitar splitter such as the lehle p split, split the signal into both amps, choose one amp to have the effects in its loop and send each amp to different speakers, either in the same cab or separate cabs.

that makes sense. I actually have a voodoo labs amp switcher so could I use that? Run my guitar in and then thhe signal to amp A and then the signal to amp B with effects in the loop. This would give me the W/D? But this config. Would use both amp tones together though which is kind of what I don't want to do.

Well that answers the question then, if you dont want both tones together (which I recommend as it doubles up on harmonics and really thickens in a nice way) then you should
follow Gainfreaks advice to get what you want.

Just realize it is not a W/D setup it is just a typical mono guitar rig with extra stuff to carry because you are using half of each amp which is totally fine if that is what you're looking for .

does the powerball have a slave or preamp out separate from the FX loop send? edit: I looked it up and it doesn't.


one thing i noticed in you original post that you dont want to do is run into the input on the mesa from the powerballs fx send. edit: it looks like gainfreak mentioned this already.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Wait a sec.... Thought about this again. If you run the powerball through 1 cab it will be dry. The second cab of the slave with the recto will be wet ...so yes... It can be setup for w/d

hookup looks like this

Powerball into cab one effects send--->to effects------Effects into--> recto's return.. recto hooked up to another speaker cab and will have effects. the end result will be dry powerball tone and wet powerball tone together!

i didnt think that would work but i dont know the powerball well.

wont plugging into the send on the powerball break the signal and mute the speaker it is connected to?

or did you mean setting the fx loop to parallel and using it that way, my Einsteins parallel loop can be used this way, can the powerballs?

Edit it also seems the OP doesn't want to hear the Engl poweramp?

 

[turmoil]

well I kind of wanted the engl preamp tone through it's own poweramp and also from the recto's power section.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

well I kind of wanted the engl preamp tone through it's own poweramp and also from the recto's power section.

ok then, Gainfreak is right.

as long as the powerballs loop allows you to use the fx send AND still have signal travel to to power amp you'll be fine doing this way. try it with the loop in parallel mode, i doubt this will work when set to serial. in serial mode it should completely break the signal path.

also, are you using digital or analog fx. if you are using digital you will need a suhr minimix or similar type of line mixer. Another issue that might arise is the send level of the fx loop may be too hot for analog pedals.

the reason is digital A/D conversion will delay the signal ever so slightly causing the dry and wet signals to be out of phase with each other. the line mixer prevents this.


so: guitar > powerball> powerballs parallel loop send > FX > Mesa FX loop return.

 

[turmoil]

ok, well I'm going to need a liine level mixer then since all my fx are digital...or atleast the ones I want to use.
I would love to blend the amp tones but last time I did that myy results were not the best. How would you eq these two amps to get a nice heavy tone?

 

[moltenmetalburn]

ok, well I'm going to need a line level mixer then since all my fx are digital...or at least the ones I want to use.

I would love to blend the amp tones but last time I did that my results were not the best. How would you EQ these two amps to get a nice heavy tone?

Kinda asking the wrong guy as I have no personal experience with the powerball or the rectifier. don't get me wrong I have heard them many times though.

The power ball is an upper mid focused amp and the recto a lower mid focused amp.

play on their individual strengths buy tailoring the powerball for the higher mid focus cut and the recto for the thick lower mid thump.

you might try using your full typical amount of distortion with the dry powerball for the cut and grind but setting the recto with less than you normally would to keep the low end clear and give the fx a little added clarity.

YMMV this is just where I would start.

 

[Gainfreak]

Well here is the Deal. If you slave the Powerball into the Recto you will only be getting the Powerballs Tone on both speakers. One speaker cab with have the full dry Powerball amp tone and the second speaker cab will have the preamp of the Powerball with the power section of the recto and it will have effects.
Once you send the signal from the powerball into the return of the Recto, it will be only be using the power section and it wont make a difference how you set the amp up because the tone knobs on the recto will become non active.


If you wanted to use two amps at the same time then that's an entirely different hookup.

As far as using a line mixer, it depends on what digital effect you have. If your effect box has good a/d convertors and build int w/d ratio you wont need a mixer at all.

I used to hook up my amps like this all the time (slave rig)

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Well here is the Deal. If you slave the Powerball into the Recto you will only be getting the Powerballs Tone on both speakers. One speaker cab with have the full dry Powerball amp tone and the second speaker cab will have the preamp of the Powerball with the power section of the recto and it will have effects.
Once you send the signal from the powerball into the return of the Recto, it will be only be using the power section and it wont make a difference how you set the amp up because the tone knobs on the recto will become non active.


If you wanted to use two amps at the same time then that's an entirely different hookup.

As far as using a line mixer, it depends on what digital effect you have. If your effect box has good a/d convertors and build int w/d ratio you wont need a mixer at all.

I used to hook up my amps like this all the time (slave rig)

He was asking about the dual amp setup in his last post. i think he understands it requires a splitter.

you never had any phasing issues that way?

I have yet to find an fx processor that didn't cause phasing this way with my setup so I had to get a line mixer. granted I haven't had anything more expensive than say 5-700 bux so def not the pinnacle fx processors.

I'm using a g major 2 these days.

 

[Gainfreak]

Well here is the Deal. If you slave the Powerball into the Recto you will only be getting the Powerballs Tone on both speakers. One speaker cab with have the full dry Powerball amp tone and the second speaker cab will have the preamp of the Powerball with the power section of the recto and it will have effects.
Once you send the signal from the powerball into the return of the Recto, it will be only be using the power section and it wont make a difference how you set the amp up because the tone knobs on the recto will become non active.


If you wanted to use two amps at the same time then that's an entirely different hookup.

As far as using a line mixer, it depends on what digital effect you have. If your effect box has good a/d convertors and build int w/d ratio you wont need a mixer at all.

I used to hook up my amps like this all the time (slave rig)

He was asking about the dual amp setup in his last post. i think he understands it requires a splitter.

you never had any phasing issues that way?

I have yet to find an fx processor that didn't cause phasing this way with my setup so I had to get a line mixer. granted I haven't had anything more expensive than say 5-700 bux so def not the pinnacle fx processors.

I'm using a g major 2 these days.

I only had Phasing issues when I used a Boss Effects unit years ago lol. When I switch to a Lexicon PC80 I didn't have any problems although Don't get me started on the lag time that Box has when Switching patches LOL!! I just used it on one setting and said screw switching

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Well here is the Deal. If you slave the Powerball into the Recto you will only be getting the Powerballs Tone on both speakers. One speaker cab with have the full dry Powerball amp tone and the second speaker cab will have the preamp of the Powerball with the power section of the recto and it will have effects.
Once you send the signal from the powerball into the return of the Recto, it will be only be using the power section and it wont make a difference how you set the amp up because the tone knobs on the recto will become non active.


If you wanted to use two amps at the same time then that's an entirely different hookup.

As far as using a line mixer, it depends on what digital effect you have. If your effect box has good a/d convertors and build int w/d ratio you wont need a mixer at all.

I used to hook up my amps like this all the time (slave rig)

He was asking about the dual amp setup in his last post. i think he understands it requires a splitter.

you never had any phasing issues that way?

I have yet to find an fx processor that didn't cause phasing this way with my setup so I had to get a line mixer. granted I haven't had anything more expensive than say 5-700 bux so def not the pinnacle fx processors.

I'm using a g major 2 these days.

I only had Phasing issues when I used a Boss Effects unit years ago lol. When I switch to a Lexicon PC80 I didn't have any problems although Don't get me started on the lag time that Box has when Switching patches LOL!! I just used it on one setting and said screw switching

damn Im jealous, I didn't WANT a line mixer as another piece, just needed it.

lag when switching is a real bummer, I feel you .

 

[turmoil]

ok, well I'm going to need a line level mixer then since all my fx are digital...or at least the ones I want to use.

I would love to blend the amp tones but last time I did that my results were not the best. How would you EQ these two amps to get a nice heavy tone?

Kinda asking the wrong guy as I have no personal experience with the powerball or the rectifier. don't get me wrong I have heard them many times though.

The power ball is an upper mid focused amp and the recto a lower mid focused amp.

play on their individual strengths buy tailoring the powerball for the higher mid focus cut and the recto for the thick lower mid thump.

you might try using your full typical amount of distortion with the dry powerball for the cut and grind but setting the recto with less than you normally would to keep the low end clear and give the fx a little added clarity.

YMMV this is just where I would start.

that sounds like a pretty good starting place! the last time i tried mixing the tones it just ended up being really flubby and not good sounding
granted, i also had no clue about how to even go about mixing the two tones together

Well here is the Deal. If you slave the Powerball into the Recto you will only be getting the Powerballs Tone on both speakers. One speaker cab with have the full dry Powerball amp tone and the second speaker cab will have the preamp of the Powerball with the power section of the recto and it will have effects.
Once you send the signal from the powerball into the return of the Recto, it will be only be using the power section and it wont make a difference how you set the amp up because the tone knobs on the recto will become non active.

So, what you're saying is this setup will work and none of the output should be muted at all? I should have cabA with all powerball (preamp/poweramp) and cabB with (Engl preamp/recto poweramp + effects)?

The effects i'm using right now aren't really "top notch" but i think they'd be decent. I mainly run Delay and Reverb on a W/D/W setup with a Boss DD-7 and a Boss RV-5. Granted, this was using the Powerball dry with the EFX send to the DD-7 and RV-5 into a Mosvalve stereo poweramp out to two other 4x12s. that sounded pretty good to me and i didn't notice any phasing issues.

would you notice a phasing issue more in a recording situation?