Preamp volume vs master volume

[mr11]

In RT's experience, is it better to push preamp or channel volume and have master set low or to push the master volume and have the preamp/channel volume set low? Everything pushed to 11? Everything set low? For bedroom practice vs playing live?

 

[rcm78]

I use the master to set the overall volume of the amp.

For each channel I get a bigger and more responsive sound by reducung pre amp as much as possible and raising the channel volume...

 

[mr11]

I use the master to set the overall volume of the amp.

For each channel I get a bigger and more responsive sound by reducung pre amp as much as possible and raising the channel volume...

Great thanks. I'm curious now if I am understanding this whole thing correctly. Does channel volume control the preamp volume? On one of my amps I have "preamp" knob which is preamp gain, then an output knob for each channel which I assume is preamp volume. Another amp has a "master" control for each channel and then an overall master. So each channel "master" is preamp volume correct? Or is channel "master" doing something else?

 

[4406cuda]

I don't believe there is a golden rule for all amps.

On my Mark V, which is a three channel amp. I set the channel volume a Little less than 50% across all channels. This seems to be the 'sweet spot" on my Mark V. Adjust the gain to taste and set the overall master to what is desired. The individual channel masters on each channel will affect your "Effects Send" level.

 

[RevolverRT]

I find that as you raise the volume of the amp, you drop the gain...as you lower the volume of the amp, you can raise the gain.

Volume = master
Gain = preamp volume

 

[C1-ocaster]

In RT's experience, is it better to push preamp or channel volume and have master set low or to push the master volume and have the preamp/channel volume set low? Everything pushed to 11? Everything set low? For bedroom practice vs playing live?

Adding to the info already given, different amps do respond differently depending on how the circuits are designed.

Most classic Fender style amps have 1 volume control and that's it.
Master volume amps tend to have a "pre/gain" and a master.
More complex master volume amps will have a "pre" + "channel volume" then "Master".

My Egnater Vengeance is a high power very high gain capable amp.
It has 2 main channels. Each channel has a "pre" and "channel volume" and then there is a universal "Master volume".
The 1st channel has variable low level pre gain to set what flavor of gain I want from very clean to a bit dirty.
Then, I can control the channel volume, which is based on where the Master is set.
The channel volumes can be set so that you can have a rhythm tone on the first channel and then a lead tone on the second.
I set the Master as the overall volume level I want/need and then set each channels volume level to balance between the 2 channels.
That's a cool ability especially for live playing.

As for gain and tone differences achieved by fiddling with "pre" "channel" and "master" on my amp I get some distinctly different tone and feel depending on how I set those 3 controls.
For the cleanest and highest headroom I will run channel 1 with pre around 4-5, "master" not higher than 4-5, and then use channel volume to dial in overall volume level. This keeps the power tubes in their clean zone with little to no power tube breakup/distortion.

With this amp it's got massive amounts of cascading pre tube gain, so for distorted tones I set the "pre" to a desired level of distortion, leave the "master" where it was for the clean channel, and use the channel volume to set overall volume.
This, again, leaves the power tubes to deliver clean power while the distortion tone comes from the pre tubes.

For different type of distortion and feel, I work the 3 controls differently.
One of my favorite settings is to crank the 'master volume' to 10/dime it, adjust the pre gain a bit lower than before, and also use the channel volume to dial in the desired volume level. This method results in the channel volume being really sensitive to where I put it because the 'master' is set to maximum, so it doesn't take much channel volume to get VERY loud.
To my ears there's a different type of distortion with this setting, kinda of like there is a bit of power tube distortion being added in with the pre tubes distortion. Plus, the amp takes on a more responsive feel, more sensitive to how I'm playing, picking and such.

Another method I've tried but with less desirable results is to run the channel volume to maximum, set the pre gain to the level of gain/distortion I want and then use the 'master' to adjust overall volume. It works, but not as pleasing as dime'ing the master with high pre gain and volume adjust with channel volume.

So, what's better?
Well, better for what? Better for tone, or the amps life?

Master volume amps are more so intended to achieve their distortion by the use of the pre gain tubes as opposed to achieving distortion by pushing the power tubes really hard.
For lower power amps like the Fender Deluxe Reverb at 22 watts, you can crank the volume to get really cool power tube distortion and the volume is high but not crazy.
And, the distortion is really nice, but it's not in very hard territory and nowhere near the distortion for saturated Metal goodness.
This is why Marshall and Mesa/Boogie took those classic Fender amp designs and added master volume circuits and then added cascading pre tube gain in order to get that great distortion along with note sustaining compression that comes with driving a tube really hard.
And all this can be done without having to crank the volume so high that the windows flex and your ear drums bleed.

What's better or best is what you like and what is pleasing to you.
Play around with various settings and hear what works and what doesn't.
Some players swear by only power tube distortion, which is a really cool and glorious tone, but requires higher volume.
Most players find pre + master amps to be more versatile as they offer more control over distortion level and volume.

For 'master volume' amps the pre tubes are VERY important as that is where nearly all of your tone is coming from.
Don't get me wrong though, the power tubes still matter and contribute to the amps overall tone.
It's just that a pre+master amp relies heavily on the pre tubes.

That's too much already, so I'll stop now.

 

[mr11]

In RT's experience, is it better to push preamp or channel volume and have master set low or to push the master volume and have the preamp/channel volume set low? Everything pushed to 11? Everything set low? For bedroom practice vs playing live?

Adding to the info already given, different amps do respond differently depending on how the circuits are designed.

Most classic Fender style amps have 1 volume control and that's it.
Master volume amps tend to have a "pre/gain" and a master.
More complex master volume amps will have a "pre" + "channel volume" then "Master".

My Egnater Vengeance is a high power very high gain capable amp.
It has 2 main channels. Each channel has a "pre" and "channel volume" and then there is a universal "Master volume".
The 1st channel has variable low level pre gain to set what flavor of gain I want from very clean to a bit dirty.
Then, I can control the channel volume, which is based on where the Master is set.
The channel volumes can be set so that you can have a rhythm tone on the first channel and then a lead tone on the second.
I set the Master as the overall volume level I want/need and then set each channels volume level to balance between the 2 channels.
That's a cool ability especially for live playing.

As for gain and tone differences achieved by fiddling with "pre" "channel" and "master" on my amp I get some distinctly different tone and feel depending on how I set those 3 controls.
For the cleanest and highest headroom I will run channel 1 with pre around 4-5, "master" not higher than 4-5, and then use channel volume to dial in overall volume level. This keeps the power tubes in their clean zone with little to no power tube breakup/distortion.

With this amp it's got massive amounts of cascading pre tube gain, so for distorted tones I set the "pre" to a desired level of distortion, leave the "master" where it was for the clean channel, and use the channel volume to set overall volume.
This, again, leaves the power tubes to deliver clean power while the distortion tone comes from the pre tubes.

For different type of distortion and feel, I work the 3 controls differently.
One of my favorite settings is to crank the 'master volume' to 10/dime it, adjust the pre gain a bit lower than before, and also use the channel volume to dial in the desired volume level. This method results in the channel volume being really sensitive to where I put it because the 'master' is set to maximum, so it doesn't take much channel volume to get VERY loud.
To my ears there's a different type of distortion with this setting, kinda of like there is a bit of power tube distortion being added in with the pre tubes distortion. Plus, the amp takes on a more responsive feel, more sensitive to how I'm playing, picking and such.

Another method I've tried but with less desirable results is to run the channel volume to maximum, set the pre gain to the level of gain/distortion I want and then use the 'master' to adjust overall volume. It works, but not as pleasing as dime'ing the master with high pre gain and volume adjust with channel volume.

So, what's better?
Well, better for what? Better for tone, or the amps life?

Master volume amps are more so intended to achieve their distortion by the use of the pre gain tubes as opposed to achieving distortion by pushing the power tubes really hard.
For lower power amps like the Fender Deluxe Reverb at 22 watts, you can crank the volume to get really cool power tube distortion and the volume is high but not crazy.
And, the distortion is really nice, but it's not in very hard territory and nowhere near the distortion for saturated Metal goodness.
This is why Marshall and Mesa/Boogie took those classic Fender amp designs and added master volume circuits and then added cascading pre tube gain in order to get that great distortion along with note sustaining compression that comes with driving a tube really hard.
And all this can be done without having to crank the volume so high that the windows flex and your ear drums bleed.

What's better or best is what you like and what is pleasing to you.
Play around with various settings and hear what works and what doesn't.
Some players swear by only power tube distortion, which is a really cool and glorious tone, but requires higher volume.
Most players find pre + master amps to be more versatile as they offer more control over distortion level and volume.

For 'master volume' amps the pre tubes are VERY important as that is where nearly all of your tone is coming from.
Don't get me wrong though, the power tubes still matter and contribute to the amps overall tone.
It's just that a pre+master amp relies heavily on the pre tubes.

That's too much already, so I'll stop now.

Awesome response, very informative. I'm definitely limited volume wise the majority of the time so setting the master at 4-5 and using channel volumes to balance/set the volume seems like the way to go. I don't think I can get away with diming the master. I'm having EQ issues going from practice to band volume, I had hoped I could just crank up the master and have a louder version of the same tone, but regretfully that is not the case. But I believe that's a separate issue all together. Experimentation to follow

 

[fretout]

I found that it depended on each individual amp. I try to set the master as high as I can get away with first, and then set the preamp volume to taste afterwards. On NMV amps, unfortunately, a lot of the gain in these designs relies upon power amp distortion.

On amps that's have a parallel loop, I found a trick to getting super thick gain, and a tone that sounded like the power amp tubes were cooking by engaging the FX loop, setting the master at least 12 o'clock (to get the power amp going),and then setting the preamp to around 1 o'clock (to get some thick, high-gain tones), and then I used the FX mix setting to set the overall volume.

If you've never tried this before, definitely do yourself a favor and give it a shot. It worked like a charm on my Triple Rectifiers that had a parallel FX Loop. I got a power attenuator as a gift so that I could get a decent low-volume-tone out of it, and a week later I figured out the "FX loop trick" and ended up never using the attenuator again. The tone sounded much more natural and open than the attenuator.

I do feel like it must be said that you will never get the feel of a cranked amp at low volumes unless your speakers are moving some air. But if you think your tone is anemic sounding, or seems to muddy, that can be improved.