Recording Guru's. I have some questions!

[GRK]

So, excuse me if my questions come across as super noob. That's probably cause I AM one when it comes to recording

1) Say I wanna use a compressor (planning on dbx 266xl or something of that sort). And say, I wanna keep the sound that goes from my amps to my mics as pure as possible. Can I place the compressor after the mics and before mic pre amps?

2) Can I apply the same rule for EQ, effects processor or maybe a noise supressor? can I use them after the mics?

Here's a super cool diagram incase the questions aren't clear

If the answer is YES, do they sound different if set up this way rather than like a normal rack or effects setup that's between preamp and power amp or in front of both?

 

[chalnger86]

I am going to very much advise against doing anything of the sort! I'm not exactly sure of what recording medium you are using (Digital Workstation like ProTools or Analogue tape) but either way, the setup you describe might actually damage some of your equipment. I'm assuming that MIC 1 is a condenser mic that need Phantom power. If that's the case, then supplying phantom power to your compressor could damage the output circutry and most certainly will not be passed on to the mic.

If you want to record a "pure" guitar tone, do exactly that. Use both of your mics straight into your recording gear. Record your "pure" tone and then add compression and whatever you want later during mixdown. It allows more options as well.

Good luck with your recording!

 

[GRK]

I am going to very much advise against doing anything of the sort! I'm not exactly sure of what recording medium you are using (Digital Workstation like ProTools or Analogue tape) but either way, the setup you describe might actually damage some of your equipment. I'm assuming that MIC 1 is a condenser mic that need Phantom power. If that's the case, then supplying phantom power to your compressor could damage the output circutry and most certainly will not be passed on to the mic.

If you want to record a "pure" guitar tone, do exactly that. Use both of your mics straight into your recording gear. Record your "pure" tone and then add compression and whatever you want later during mixdown. It allows more options as well.

Good luck with your recording!

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I would be putting the phantom power AFTER the compressor though. Would that still do damage? Either way, I'm glad I asked it here!

Another question. How can you put compression/eq/noise gate AFTER laying down tracks? Line out from soundcard going into rack gear with compressor, etc. that goes back into line in in the soundcard or something of that sort?

Basically I'm looking for a way to use rack compression/eq/noisegate instead of computer software. I seriously have no idea about how to hook them up besides the general way (between preamp and power amp or before both). I don't wanna do that.

Any ideas?

 

[GRK]

Hmm. I feel like a super noob. I did some more searching and I think the solution is a mixer. LOL. DOH!

 

[defpearlpilot]

I am going to very much advise against doing anything of the sort! I'm not exactly sure of what recording medium you are using (Digital Workstation like ProTools or Analogue tape) but either way, the setup you describe might actually damage some of your equipment. I'm assuming that MIC 1 is a condenser mic that need Phantom power. If that's the case, then supplying phantom power to your compressor could damage the output circutry and most certainly will not be passed on to the mic.

If you want to record a "pure" guitar tone, do exactly that. Use both of your mics straight into your recording gear. Record your "pure" tone and then add compression and whatever you want later during mixdown. It allows more options as well.

Good luck with your recording!

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I would be putting the phantom power AFTER the compressor though. Would that still do damage? Either way, I'm glad I asked it here!

Another question. How can you put compression/eq/noise gate AFTER laying down tracks? Line out from soundcard going into rack gear with compressor, etc. that goes back into line in in the soundcard or something of that sort?

Basically I'm looking for a way to use rack compression/eq/noisegate instead of computer software. I seriously have no idea about how to hook them up besides the general way (between preamp and power amp or before both). I don't wanna do that.

Any ideas?

Yes, typically your interface will have inputs(return from gear) and outputs(send to gear) like that. Within your software, you would assign the send to the appropriate output. You have to create another track with the input being the return from the rack gear.

 

[nwright]

I am going to very much advise against doing anything of the sort! I'm not exactly sure of what recording medium you are using (Digital Workstation like ProTools or Analogue tape) but either way, the setup you describe might actually damage some of your equipment. I'm assuming that MIC 1 is a condenser mic that need Phantom power. If that's the case, then supplying phantom power to your compressor could damage the output circutry and most certainly will not be passed on to the mic.

If you want to record a "pure" guitar tone, do exactly that. Use both of your mics straight into your recording gear. Record your "pure" tone and then add compression and whatever you want later during mixdown. It allows more options as well.

Good luck with your recording!

Hey, thanks for the reply.

I would be putting the phantom power AFTER the compressor though. Would that still do damage? Either way, I'm glad I asked it here!

Another question. How can you put compression/eq/noise gate AFTER laying down tracks? Line out from soundcard going into rack gear with compressor, etc. that goes back into line in in the soundcard or something of that sort?

Basically I'm looking for a way to use rack compression/eq/noisegate instead of computer software. I seriously have no idea about how to hook them up besides the general way (between preamp and power amp or before both). I don't wanna do that.

Any ideas?

Yes, typically your interface will have inputs(return from gear) and outputs(send to gear) like that. Within your software, you would assign the send to the appropriate output. You have to create another track with the input being the return from the rack gear.

+1 to that. Even using outboard gear, I'd relegate it's use to post processing, after your raw tracks are recorded.

 

[GRK]

That's great. I love the idea of keeping the tracks pure yet still being able to post edit with hardware instead of software. Feels like combining old school and new stuff!

Damn. So much to learn. Thanks guys.

 

[defpearlpilot]

That's great. I love the idea of keeping the tracks pure yet still being able to post edit with hardware instead of software. Feels like combining old school and new stuff!

Damn. So much to learn. Thanks guys.

Why are you against using plug-ins? You know that pretty much all actions are non-destructive. Not to mention that they can be done in real-time rather then affecting the track.

 

[Bob Savage]

So, excuse me if my questions come across as super noob. That's probably cause I AM one when it comes to recording

1) Say I wanna use a compressor (planning on dbx 266xl or something of that sort). And say, I wanna keep the sound that goes from my amps to my mics as pure as possible. Can I place the compressor after the mics and before mic pre amps?

2) Can I apply the same rule for EQ, effects processor or maybe a noise supressor? can I use them after the mics?

Here's a super cool diagram incase the questions aren't clear

If the answer is YES, do they sound different if set up this way rather than like a normal rack or effects setup that's between preamp and power amp or in front of both?

I would strongly suggest you don't do any compressing, processing or otherwise while tracking unless you're recording a clean tone and the playing creates a wide dynamic range. Process in the mix.

If you must use a compressor or other device, you have to run your mic into the preamp and then use the line out for the channel into your processors, then into the box. If your preamps are on your interface, you may not have the ability to use processors in-line unless the interface supports inserts.

 

[Bob Savage]

That's great. I love the idea of keeping the tracks pure yet still being able to post edit with hardware instead of software. Feels like combining old school and new stuff!

Damn. So much to learn. Thanks guys.

Sounds very limiting to me. If you want to "combine the old with the new" the way I would suggest it is this, and you'll need GOOD converters.

Record your tracks straight in. If your software supports external hardware and you're using a flexible ASIO interface, setup your hardware compressor/processors that way and the software will do the latency compensation. If your software doesn't support external hardware you could run the signal through the line out on your interface into the processor and then back into a channel to record it. Be careful not to have software monitoring on or you'll create a feedback loop and you'll also have to figure out the latency and adjust the track yourself, which is a major pain. There are other ways to do it but only very flexible interfaces can accomodate it, such as using a loopback on outputs, etc.

 

[OneArmedScissor]

Sounds very limiting to me. If you want to "combine the old with the new" the way I would suggest it is this, and you'll need GOOD converters.

Yeah, no offense, but this isn't a terribly logical approach for someone that didn't realize that some of this stuff doesn't make sense. You'd need to spend thousands on converters and compressors or whatever else for it to be worth it, and that's high end stuff that takes the experience to operate to its greatest efficiency for it to be of any use to begin with.

You need to know WHY to do something before you do it.

 

[GRK]

Guys that's why I'm asking instead of going out and buying stuff rightaway. I am at a point where I can record decent tones from my amp to my computer but it doesn't have that "polished" quality yet. I'm pretty sure I need to do post editing to achieve such quality. All I'm trying to do is ask how to do this with hardware instead of software. I don't have anything against software but I'd rather do my editing on stuff I can touch smell see you know what I mean? I know software stuff is crazy good these days nothing against it.

Also, why are you shocked that things I say don't make sense? That's exactly why I'm asking. I have no idea about this stuff and I'm looking for help. I wanna be able to record high quality "polished" guitar sounds on my computer. I think I've gone a long way with amp, 2 mics, preamp. Now I need to find a way to edit. If you have any suggestions besides my stupid ideas, I will be very glad to hear them btw.

About compression: I know it's not absolute necessity for distorted guitars and I know some people think that it "takes the soul out" of your tone but I wanna be able to make the guitars as loud as possible before clipping to give me room in the mix. I can always turn them down but I can't turn them up if there's peaks. Maybe I should try editing peaks manually. De-amplifying them to correct dB or something. Very time consuming but may be rewarding who knows. I've never tried.

Thanks for help so far. Again, better/more affordable ideas always welcome. Thank you.

 

[Bob Savage]

Guys that's why I'm asking instead of going out and buying stuff rightaway. I am at a point where I can record decent tones from my amp to my computer but it doesn't have that "polished" quality yet. I'm pretty sure I need to do post editing to achieve such quality. All I'm trying to do is ask how to do this with hardware instead of software. I don't have anything against software but I'd rather do my editing on stuff I can touch smell see you know what I mean? I know software stuff is crazy good these days nothing against it.

Also, why are you shocked that things I say don't make sense? That's exactly why I'm asking. I have no idea about this stuff and I'm looking for help. I wanna be able to record high quality "polished" guitar sounds on my computer. I think I've gone a long way with amp, 2 mics, preamp. Now I need to find a way to edit. If you have any suggestions besides my stupid ideas, I will be very glad to hear them btw.

About compression: I know it's not absolute necessity for distorted guitars and I know some people think that it "takes the soul out" of your tone but I wanna be able to make the guitars as loud as possible before clipping to give me room in the mix. I can always turn them down but I can't turn them up if there's peaks. Maybe I should try editing peaks manually. De-amplifying them to correct dB or something. Very time consuming but may be rewarding who knows. I've never tried.

Thanks for help so far. Again, better/more affordable ideas always welcome. Thank you.

I hate to say it, but you seem to be asking the questions and at the same time resistant to the answers.
The methodology you're wanting to use is one of the most complex approaches around when it comes to computer based recording. I mean no disrespect, but your knowledge level is VERY low right now. Getting "polished" pro level recordings doesn't happen over night. Take it slow, do your homework, ask questions, and especially be open to the opinions of those who have been doing this for a while otherwise you will lose their input in the future.

 

[defpearlpilot]

Guys that's why I'm asking instead of going out and buying stuff rightaway. I am at a point where I can record decent tones from my amp to my computer but it doesn't have that "polished" quality yet. I'm pretty sure I need to do post editing to achieve such quality. All I'm trying to do is ask how to do this with hardware instead of software. I don't have anything against software but I'd rather do my editing on stuff I can touch smell see you know what I mean? I know software stuff is crazy good these days nothing against it.

Also, why are you shocked that things I say don't make sense? That's exactly why I'm asking. I have no idea about this stuff and I'm looking for help. I wanna be able to record high quality "polished" guitar sounds on my computer. I think I've gone a long way with amp, 2 mics, preamp. Now I need to find a way to edit. If you have any suggestions besides my stupid ideas, I will be very glad to hear them btw.

About compression: I know it's not absolute necessity for distorted guitars and I know some people think that it "takes the soul out" of your tone but I wanna be able to make the guitars as loud as possible before clipping to give me room in the mix. I can always turn them down but I can't turn them up if there's peaks. Maybe I should try editing peaks manually. De-amplifying them to correct dB or something. Very time consuming but may be rewarding who knows. I've never tried.

Thanks for help so far. Again, better/more affordable ideas always welcome. Thank you.

If you are using 24-bit soundcards then the level should be less of an issue. I would record the guitars at -6db max peak. Actually, when I record mine, it's usually much less than that. Then you apply a compressor in software or outboard gear. But it's best to record an uncompressed track. It gives you much more flexibility when mixing.

 

[GRK]

Guys that's why I'm asking instead of going out and buying stuff rightaway. I am at a point where I can record decent tones from my amp to my computer but it doesn't have that "polished" quality yet. I'm pretty sure I need to do post editing to achieve such quality. All I'm trying to do is ask how to do this with hardware instead of software. I don't have anything against software but I'd rather do my editing on stuff I can touch smell see you know what I mean? I know software stuff is crazy good these days nothing against it.

Also, why are you shocked that things I say don't make sense? That's exactly why I'm asking. I have no idea about this stuff and I'm looking for help. I wanna be able to record high quality "polished" guitar sounds on my computer. I think I've gone a long way with amp, 2 mics, preamp. Now I need to find a way to edit. If you have any suggestions besides my stupid ideas, I will be very glad to hear them btw.

About compression: I know it's not absolute necessity for distorted guitars and I know some people think that it "takes the soul out" of your tone but I wanna be able to make the guitars as loud as possible before clipping to give me room in the mix. I can always turn them down but I can't turn them up if there's peaks. Maybe I should try editing peaks manually. De-amplifying them to correct dB or something. Very time consuming but may be rewarding who knows. I've never tried.

Thanks for help so far. Again, better/more affordable ideas always welcome. Thank you.

I hate to say it, but you seem to be asking the questions and at the same time resistant to the answers.
The methodology you're wanting to use is one of the most complex approaches around when it comes to computer based recording. I mean no disrespect, but your knowledge level is VERY low right now. Getting "polished" pro level recordings doesn't happen over night. Take it slow, do your homework, ask questions, and especially be open to the opinions of those who have been doing this for a while otherwise you will lose their input in the future.

Wasn't my intention. You guys' answers DO matter.

Let me turn this around a bit. Here's the latest thing I've recorded:

Backing track belongs to Tommi Inkila (from Petrucci forums). I only did guitars. Forget the cheesy guitars I wrote (was a quickie) and focus on tone/quality. Now, I honestly think that tone is decent. But it still screams "HOME RECORDING" to my ears. What would you say is "next step" without trying to "bite what i can't eat", so to speak. I was thinking post editing and I guess I was shooting for unrealistic and high-level stuff but I just can't think of what to do so help me out!

Thanks.

 

[GRK]

Guys that's why I'm asking instead of going out and buying stuff rightaway. I am at a point where I can record decent tones from my amp to my computer but it doesn't have that "polished" quality yet. I'm pretty sure I need to do post editing to achieve such quality. All I'm trying to do is ask how to do this with hardware instead of software. I don't have anything against software but I'd rather do my editing on stuff I can touch smell see you know what I mean? I know software stuff is crazy good these days nothing against it.

Also, why are you shocked that things I say don't make sense? That's exactly why I'm asking. I have no idea about this stuff and I'm looking for help. I wanna be able to record high quality "polished" guitar sounds on my computer. I think I've gone a long way with amp, 2 mics, preamp. Now I need to find a way to edit. If you have any suggestions besides my stupid ideas, I will be very glad to hear them btw.

About compression: I know it's not absolute necessity for distorted guitars and I know some people think that it "takes the soul out" of your tone but I wanna be able to make the guitars as loud as possible before clipping to give me room in the mix. I can always turn them down but I can't turn them up if there's peaks. Maybe I should try editing peaks manually. De-amplifying them to correct dB or something. Very time consuming but may be rewarding who knows. I've never tried.

Thanks for help so far. Again, better/more affordable ideas always welcome. Thank you.

If you are using 24-bit soundcards then the level should be less of an issue. I would record the guitars at -6db max peak. Actually, when I record mine, it's usually much less than that. Then you apply a compressor in software or outboard gear. But it's best to record an uncompressed track. It gives you much more flexibility when mixing.

I'm using an M-Audio Delta 1010LT at the moment. But I hear you. I've never got good results with software compressors but I'm pretty sure it's user error and I have to try more. I did however, got good results with compressor IN guitar gear. Never tried hardware compressors for recording before. But I hear ya, thanks.

 

[defpearlpilot]

Wasn't my intention. You guys' answers DO matter.

Let me turn this around a bit. Here's the latest thing I've recorded:

Backing track belongs to Tommi Inkila (from Petrucci forums). I only did guitars. Forget the cheesy guitars I wrote (was a quickie) and focus on tone/quality. Now, I honestly think that tone is decent. But it still screams "HOME RECORDING" to my ears. What would you say is "next step" without trying to "bite what i can't eat", so to speak. I was thinking post editing and I guess I was shooting for unrealistic and high-level stuff but I just can't think of what to do so help me out!

Thanks.

What problems do you have with that tone? What makes you say it screams "home recording?" I'd say the main problem with that track isn't your guitars but the overly stiff feeling of the entire thing.

 

[GRK]

Wasn't my intention. You guys' answers DO matter.

Let me turn this around a bit. Here's the latest thing I've recorded:

Backing track belongs to Tommi Inkila (from Petrucci forums). I only did guitars. Forget the cheesy guitars I wrote (was a quickie) and focus on tone/quality. Now, I honestly think that tone is decent. But it still screams "HOME RECORDING" to my ears. What would you say is "next step" without trying to "bite what i can't eat", so to speak. I was thinking post editing and I guess I was shooting for unrealistic and high-level stuff but I just can't think of what to do so help me out!

Thanks.

What problems do you have with that tone? What makes you say it screams "home recording?" I'd say the main problem with that track isn't your guitars but the overly stiff feeling of the entire thing.

What do you mean by "stiff"?

I do kinda believe that rest of the music always throws me off when trying to judge the guitars. I wonder if that same exact guitar tone would sound great with a pro sounding backing track.

But again, I do think the guitars don't sound "polished". It's great tone for my taste but it's not what I hear on pro cd's. I'm not saying I should sound pro just yet but there must be a forward step towards that that I can take!

 

[defpearlpilot]

Wasn't my intention. You guys' answers DO matter.

Let me turn this around a bit. Here's the latest thing I've recorded:

Backing track belongs to Tommi Inkila (from Petrucci forums). I only did guitars. Forget the cheesy guitars I wrote (was a quickie) and focus on tone/quality. Now, I honestly think that tone is decent. But it still screams "HOME RECORDING" to my ears. What would you say is "next step" without trying to "bite what i can't eat", so to speak. I was thinking post editing and I guess I was shooting for unrealistic and high-level stuff but I just can't think of what to do so help me out!

Thanks.

What problems do you have with that tone? What makes you say it screams "home recording?" I'd say the main problem with that track isn't your guitars but the overly stiff feeling of the entire thing.

What do you mean by "stiff"?

I do kinda believe that rest of the music always throws me off when trying to judge the guitars. I wonder if that same exact guitar tone would sound great with a pro sounding backing track.

But again, I do think the guitars don't sound "polished". It's great tone for my taste but it's not what I hear on pro cd's. I'm not saying I should sound pro just yet but there must be a forward step towards that that I can take!

You can tell that the drums and keys are sequenced, at least they sound that way. It makes the song sound unnatural. The back track is the weakness IMO.

Personally, I don't think they sound bad. They have a decent crunch to them. Perhaps they sound a bit too hifi in that there is very little sizzle. I guess solid state is the way that I would describe it. What amp are you playing thru?

 

[GRK]

You can tell that the drums and keys are sequenced, at least they sound that way. It makes the song sound unnatural. The back track is the weakness IMO.

Personally, I don't think they sound bad. They have a decent crunch to them. Perhaps they sound a bit too hifi in that there is very little sizzle. I guess solid state is the way that I would describe it. What amp are you playing thru?

I see. Backing track was for a freeware game maybe they had to do it that way? Not sure.

LP Vintage Mahogany -> Roadster -> Avatar 2x12 with CL80's -> Shure SM57 (didn't use AT2020 for that one) -> M-audio Delta 1010LT

This was the gear.