Reinhold Bogner Quote

[degenaro]

Binn ka Ami, hab imma nu mein Deitschen Ausweis...

Ah suuu, dann iss ja alles baleddi. Bist wohl aa aus Nermberch? Odda aus Frangn?

Nermberch...in Weiherhaus geborn un aafgwachsen.

 

[scottkahn]

a split system of pre and power amp can not give you the dynamics and response of a single circuit which incorporates both

I think to the technical letter of the laws of electronics, this is a partially correct statement (response) because as one poster commented, sag created in a head affects both the power amp section AND the preamp section, whereas in the rack scenario, sag is only happening in the power amp. I disagree that you don't get the dynamics.

Now does this particular comment make a difference related to your tone? For me, NO. I have played (and reviewed in depth) many of the best boutique amps, I have owned tons of heads, combos, and rack setups, and never once did I feel that my rack rig lacked anything tone-wise OR dynamics-wise compared to my traditional amps.

My main rig at the moment: ENGL e580 MIDI Tube Preamp into ENGL 850/100 power amp. The B-rig: Mesa/Boogie Triaxis into Mesa 2:Ninety. What I have found with many previous iterations of rack setups is this: the right combination of preamp and power amp is key to things sounding truly fantastic, head-like (or better). For example, the Mesa 2:Ninety is superbly mated to the Triaxis, for which it was designed. But the simul-class power block sounded flat, dull, lacking in general character when paired with the ENGL preamp. Pair it with its designated power partner and wow -- monster tone.

One one hand it's great to be able to mix and match preamps and power amps, but I have found almost every time that the best sounding power amps were the ones designed for their related preamps. Not every time, but usually.

 

[steve_k]

Contemplating RB's statement as I sit here playing the Fish.....

I don't know how much, if any dynamics are lost. My ear cannot tell the difference, but that means nothing. Being a rational person, I think it is fair to say that there could be something lost as there is a disconnect between PRE and POWER sections. There has to be some phase inversion lost between the two. Everything from the preamp goes through an output driver tube and a signal to an unmatched power section of an amp. I can accept it that there is a difference, however minute or obvious.

Steve

 

[Digital Jams]

"Dynamics and response" - it all has a bearing on the tone- right?

IMO no.

The right hand brings out the dynamics and response imo.

 

[Digital Jams]

So does that mean that a W/D/W rig (with a necessary separate power amp) is inferior to a head with an effects loop, from a dynamics and responsiveness standpoint?

Not if your pulling the line out post power section, anyways your dry cab will be the amp's voicing.

You could go a step further and mic the dry cab and send that to your wet side.

 

[Digital Jams]

I can't explain why electronically, but I always found pre's sounded much better using heads (usually Marshall) for power than separate, rack power amps. I think Metallica slaved their 2C+ into Marshall heads for Power IIRC.

I remember working in a store where we would take the JMP-1 and Triaxis and they would both sound better going into the return of a DSL's loop than using either the 9200/EL34 100/100 or Mesa 2:90.

Metallica slaved their IIC+'s into marshalls and used separate strategy 400 power amps with studio preamps.
But later on I also remember they started using their IIC+'s slaved into strategy 400's
]

Slaving was a way to have the mesas singing at controllable volumes, what Sykes did with his coli.

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

 

[roadifier]

I can't explain why electronically, but I always found pre's sounded much better using heads (usually Marshall) for power than separate, rack power amps. I think Metallica slaved their 2C+ into Marshall heads for Power IIRC.

I remember working in a store where we would take the JMP-1 and Triaxis and they would both sound better going into the return of a DSL's loop than using either the 9200/EL34 100/100 or Mesa 2:90.

Metallica slaved their IIC+'s into marshalls and used separate strategy 400 power amps with studio preamps.
But later on I also remember they started using their IIC+'s slaved into strategy 400's
]

Slaving was a way to have the mesas singing at controllable volumes, what Sykes did with his coli.

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

I totally agree on that!

 

[Little B]

Meh, he was probably try to sell XTC heads that week.

I'll pit my Fish/2150 setup against anything.[/ quote] Agreed 100% w/ guitarslinger on this!....maybe some of the 80's "racks" that sounded like 50 delays and chorus's runnin all at once probably didnt have quite the "amp head" feel-and thats puttin it mildly....Bogner Fish's,Mesa Quads,Egnater pre's,CAE 3+,X 88-99 r's,etc...these all are on countless recordings-way more than we probably know of...

 

[degenaro]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

 

[steve_k]

........as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain....

Good one Ed. Needs to be coined!

Steve

 

[Little B]

Meh, he was probably try to sell XTC heads that week.

I'll pit my Fish/2150 setup against anything.[/ quote] Agreed 100% w/ guitarslinger on this!....maybe some of the 80's "racks" that sounded like 50 delays and chorus's runnin all at once probably didnt have quite the "amp head" feel-and thats puttin it mildly....Bogner Fish's,Mesa Quads,Egnater pre's,CAE 3+,X 88-99 r's,etc...these all are on countless recordings-way more than we probably know of...and 1 reason is thier added flexibility that amp heads dont offer-its much easier to mix and match power amp options...I agree in his statement- that could be true of separates,but theres much more to it than that...I laugh every time a client comes in,plugs into a few of our amp heads- Shiva,Herbert,Quickrod,Mk III,fender deluxe, then they plug into this rack and thats what they decide to record with!....This rig has also been carefully wired that , we regularly get comments that they feel like theyre plugged straight into an amp head; w/no lacking in feel,and tone...so...go figure, I guess.....its all good

 

[Digital Jams]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

I agree with what your saying Ed, there will be that wall you will hit with some amps no matter the player. My response was for that crowd that play wide open for the most part, for those people IMO Reinhold's quote does not really mean anything to them. No a jap at anyone, for some wide open is what they enjoy.

Had your old 3:14 going earlier with single coils, that pedal is the shit.

When the fuck are you going to0 get to the east coast again anyways, dont you know the real world revolves around est?

 

[AmpliFIRE]

I agree 100%...never been a fan of rack setups

 

[degenaro]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

I agree with what your saying Ed, there will be that wall you will hit with some amps no matter the player. My response was for that crowd that play wide open for the most part, for those people IMO Reinhold's quote does not really mean anything to them. No a jap at anyone, for some wide open is what they enjoy.

Had your old 3:14 going earlier with single coils, that pedal is the shit.

When the fuck are you going to0 get to the east coast again anyways, dont you know the real world revolves around est?

'xactly. As for east coast...good question...I'm about to head to Asia for 11 weeks again.

 

[steve_k]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

I agree with what your saying Ed, there will be that wall you will hit with some amps no matter the player. My response was for that crowd that play wide open for the most part, for those people IMO Reinhold's quote does not really mean anything to them. No a jap at anyone, for some wide open is what they enjoy.

Had your old 3:14 going earlier with single coils, that pedal is the shit.

When the fuck are you going to0 get to the east coast again anyways, dont you know the real world revolves around est?

'xactly. As for east coast...good question...I'm about to head to Asia for 11 weeks again.

Heading to Sri Lanka next week to chill out for a couple weeks..........

 

[Digital Jams]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

I agree with what your saying Ed, there will be that wall you will hit with some amps no matter the player. My response was for that crowd that play wide open for the most part, for those people IMO Reinhold's quote does not really mean anything to them. No a jap at anyone, for some wide open is what they enjoy.

Had your old 3:14 going earlier with single coils, that pedal is the shit.

When the fuck are you going to0 get to the east coast again anyways, dont you know the real world revolves around est?

'xactly. As for east coast...good question...I'm about to head to Asia for 11 weeks again.

Too bad you were not there for India vs Pakistan semi finals Cricket World Cup, place will be going nuts.

Take care and watch out for snakes.

 

[degenaro]

Seems after reading some replys I am in the minority but still stand by my opinion, dynamics are brought out by the player.

Yes, the player controls dynamics, except that that's not what Reinhold was talking about. Just when you drive a car no matter how much you want to go faster once you reach top stop...it ain't gonna go any faster. Same with an amp...depending on the design it'll react to the player's right hand in some cases better in others less.
But lets not kid ourself...around here dynamic range is really not something that is of importance when it comes to amps. And as far as player generated dynamics are concerned once you have Rig-Talk approved gain there's enough compression that dynamic response will require stepping on the channel selector switch.

As for slaving I seem to remember it being less a matter of volume reduction that adding delay and verb after gain.

I agree with what your saying Ed, there will be that wall you will hit with some amps no matter the player. My response was for that crowd that play wide open for the most part, for those people IMO Reinhold's quote does not really mean anything to them. No a jap at anyone, for some wide open is what they enjoy.

Had your old 3:14 going earlier with single coils, that pedal is the shit.

When the fuck are you going to0 get to the east coast again anyways, dont you know the real world revolves around est?

'xactly. As for east coast...good question...I'm about to head to Asia for 11 weeks again.

Too bad you were not there for India vs Pakistan semi finals Cricket World Cup, place will be going nuts.

Take care and watch out for snakes.

Yeah next Wednesday they might as well close India since no one will do anything but pay attention to the finals. BTW Scott...what's your facebook addy?

 

[Digital Jams]

No Facebook Ed believe it or not, I follow your Reverbnation blog.

Holy shit the sluts that would show up would not go over well with the mrs.

 

[degenaro]

No Facebook Ed believe it or not, I follow your Reverbnation blog.

Holy shit the sluts that would show up would not go over well with the mrs.

that's funny....

 

[guitarslinger]

Meh, he was probably try to sell XTC heads that week.

I'll pit my Fish/2150 setup against anything.[/ quote] Agreed 100% w/ guitarslinger on this!....maybe some of the 80's "racks" that sounded like 50 delays and chorus's runnin all at once probably didnt have quite the "amp head" feel-and thats puttin it mildly....Bogner Fish's,Mesa Quads,Egnater pre's,CAE 3+,X 88-99 r's,etc...these all are on countless recordings-way more than we probably know of...

amen, bro.

seriously, I'm not going to flat-out say, "tone is in the fingers", but, a versatile preamp through a beastly power amp will sound fantastic with a good guitar player.

seriously, I've stopped over-thinking this.