Sell your mark IIC+: the black album was a mark 3.

[ZEN Amps]

his settings look all over the place. heres one pic where bass is marked 5 and heres another where they are at 0 lol

Yep presumably there's tonnes of settings and changes for all sorts of reasons. 750Hz is obliterated here that's for sure.

 

[VESmedic]

One thing to mention, about Mr Rock is he has been wrong about what he remembers when it comes to his records. WHAT???? You say?? Yes, when he had that Skype interview with Friedman on tone talk last year or whenever, he was asked about what speakers Sykes used on the 1987 album. He said V30s. Well, no V30 cabs existed in 1985/86 when they recorded it. The Marshall Vintage was first used in some 1x12 combos in 1986; but not in any 412s until the Jubilee cabs in 1987. Then continued in 88/89 in 800 cabs. So, unless you want to believe that someone bought 4 combos, and took the speakers out and loaded them up in a cab he's wrong about that memory. And, Sykes wasn't endorsed by Marshall at that time so I seriously doubt with all the other cabs he owned, plus probably getting his own C+ and III Coliseums + Mesa Cabs that he somehow thought he needed to pirate a bunch of 1X12 Marshall combos for their speakers.
Then, when you consider the 2C+ and III look practically identical in 99% to each other, it's pretty easy to see him getting confused.

Let's also not forget, that Metallica used the C+ exclusively through a Marshall power section for AJFA and MOP. So, saying that the C+ is barely used on ANY albums is pretty ludicrous when the biggest Metal band EVAR used it on 2 out of 3 of their biggest Albums, and in my and most others opinions yes it absolutely was used on the Black album so 3/3 albums. Along with a bunch of other amps.

But that last paragraph is 100 percent EXACTLY my point….. the amp BY ITSELF, has literally no credibility, other than dream theater. It’s notoriety is not backed up AT ALL by its credits on records. That’s been my point since day one: MARSHALL power amps… MARSHALL cabinets…the amp is so phenomenal, yet No one used it on its own…. I’m just sayin, I think it’s hillarious. Same thing with the SLO…. I don’t think these amps sound bad AT ALL, I just simply think people praise them for absolutely no other reason other than “METALLICA BRO”, and so somehow to these you tubers it’s the greatest heavy amp of all time… why? I have no idea…. Based on what? I have no clue. That’s my point here. I’m sure all these c+ cRybabies will come in and say fuck you I love the amp that’s all that matters; and that’s exactly 100 percent true. But rig talkers are not the norm of guitar players.

 

[RaceU4her]

Ride the lightning was metallicas best tone

 

[VESmedic]

Ride the lightning was metallicas best tone

I think it’s low key my favorite Metallica record and always has been. I’ve always felt the title track was the scariest most out of control song they ever did. It just felt scary to me when I was kid hearing that for the first time. Pure madness, and imagery. The tension that builds when they go up to the F# during the pre chorus, it’s incredible to me. Chilling lyrics as well. Loved it.

 

[GJgo]

Here's yer proof, it was a green stripe!!

 

[Tone Monster]

But that last paragraph is 100 percent EXACTLY my point….. the amp BY ITSELF, has literally no credibility, other than dream theater. It’s notoriety is not backed up AT ALL by its credits on records. That’s been my point since day one: MARSHALL power amps… MARSHALL cabinets…the amp is so phenomenal, yet No one used it on its own…. I’m just sayin, I think it’s hillarious. Same thing with the SLO…. I don’t think these amps sound bad AT ALL, I just simply think people praise them for absolutely no other reason other than “METALLICA BRO”, and so somehow to these you tubers it’s the greatest heavy amp of all time… why? I have no idea…. Based on what? I have no clue. That’s my point here. I’m sure all these c+ cRybabies will come in and say fuck you I love the amp that’s all that matters; and that’s exactly 100 percent true. But rig talkers are not the norm of guitar players.

I praise the IIC++ because, to me, it sounds phenomenal. I’ve owned almost every Mark version I can think of. If any of you were to play my IV for 5 minutes, then plug in the the big boy, you immediately think “Ahhh, thats the sound”. Incredible. It’s not complicated. I don’t care that you hate it. You just like stirring the pot to get a rise out of people. Carry on…cause you can’t stop.

 

[VESmedic]

I praise the IIC++ because, to me, it sounds phenomenal. I’ve owned almost every Mark version I can think of. If any of you were to play my IV for 5 minutes, then plug in the the big boy, you immediately think “Ahhh, thats the sound”. Incredible. It’s not complicated. I don’t care that you hate it. You just like stirring the pot to get a rise out of people. Carry on…cause you can’t stop.

No… I discriminate…. Only certain people… the low hanging fruit; the c+ fanboys and SLO fanboys mostly… notice I only troll about hmmmm…. 3 people now?

 

[Racerxrated]

The best amps to me have great clarity, feel and can thump if necessary. C+s, SLOs, Wizards, earlier Rectos, MV and NMV Marshalls, VHT D60/120, Naylor SD all have those things. They sound very different from one another but those qualities are what I favor most and, whether a certain amp was/wasn’t used in any album I couldn’t care less honestly. Because, with AXE and Kemper etc it kind of makes recording a real tube amp not necessary anymore. Then it becomes more of, what we like to play at home or at a gig.

 

[Techdeth]

Ride the lightning was metallicas best tone

The rest of the production bothers my ears but the tone is cool

 

[thegame]

Can we argue about something else? I think the Diezel Herbert sucks balls. Couldn't cut through in a band situation worth a shit when multiple other amps I had access to could just fine. Literally had the first one in Canada in 2003 or so. My friend's C+ ate it alive, shit it out, then Larry ate the shit and gave birth to an amp that smokes both the C+ and Herbert. True story!

BTW why are you on here on a Friday night, loser? Miss me that much?

 

[Philhouse]

They didn't use Marshalls as power amps for Puppets, apart from some of Kirks leads. It's an internet myth that they totally slaved into Marshalls.
They did use seperate Boogie power amps on Justice though. Read the studio notes for Puppets and AJFA.
I'll buy someone a beer if they can find credible evidence otherwise.

 

[riffsfordaze]

They didn't use Marshalls as power amps for Puppets, apart from some of Kirks leads. It's an internet myth that they totally slaved into Marshalls.
They did use seperate Boogie power amps on Justice though. Read the studio notes for Puppets and AJFA.
I'll buy someone a beer if they can find credible evidence otherwise.

Exactly!

 

[easstudios]

KIND of feel like Bob Rock deserves a little more credibility. He was a driving force on that album, he plays guitar (and collects gear!), was calling the shots in the studio every day, he’d have recall sheets, he would have been asked these questions every day for decades and repeated the same answers, would have talked to other engineers, the band members etc.

He may be wrong, but let’s assume that if anyone knows exactly what the truth is, no one is in a better position than him. If someone as credible as him calls him out on it, fair enough but no one has. Must be nuts for him to say anything, and have forum dudes tell him he’s wrong.

and it’s all moot anyway, the amp alone isn’t going to get you that tone. it’s the culmination of many small decisions stacked on top of each other

 

[Ventura]

Ride the lightning was metallicas best tone

Not sure about tone, tone is totally subjective, but RTL is my fave album for just tearing metal a new arhoolie and to this day continues to deliver in spades.

KIND of feel like Bob Rock deserves a little more credibility. He was a driving force on that album, he plays guitar (and collects gear!), was calling the shots in the studio every day, he’d have recall sheets, he would have been asked these questions every day for decades and repeated the same answers, would have talked to other engineers, the band members etc.

He may be wrong, but let’s assume that if anyone knows exactly what the truth is, no one is in a better position than him. If someone as credible as him calls him out on it, fair enough but no one has. Must be nuts for him to say anything, and have forum dudes tell him he’s wrong.

and it’s all moot anyway, the amp alone isn’t going to get you that tone. it’s the culmination of many small decisions stacked on top of each other

Agreed.

 

[NineShallDie]

KIND of feel like Bob Rock deserves a little more credibility. He was a driving force on that album, he plays guitar (and collects gear!), was calling the shots in the studio every day, he’d have recall sheets, he would have been asked these questions every day for decades and repeated the same answers, would have talked to other engineers, the band members etc.

He may be wrong, but let’s assume that if anyone knows exactly what the truth is, no one is in a better position than him. If someone as credible as him calls him out on it, fair enough but no one has. Must be nuts for him to say anything, and have forum dudes tell him he’s wrong.

and it’s all moot anyway, the amp alone isn’t going to get you that tone. it’s the culmination of many small decisions stacked on top of each other

Yet, Hetfield said in a 1991 interview with Guitar World that he used the same Mark II that he’d used on previous albums. Wouldn’t that be the most credible source of information? Was he lying? Did he forget what amp he’d used to track guitars just a few months earlier? Or did Bob get it wrong 30 years later?

 

[easstudios]

Yet, Hetfield said in a 1991 interview with Guitar World that he used the same Mark II that he’d used on previous albums. Wouldn’t that be the most credible source of information? Was he lying? Did he forget what amp he’d used to track guitars just a few months earlier? Or did Bob get it wrong 30 years later?

View attachment 141376

I’m not disputing what James says, just saying what Bob says shouldn’t be discarded. Sure, it’s 30 years later, but it’s not like it’s been at the back of Bob’s mind and suddenly someone is asking him 30 years later. It’s probably been 30 years straight of being asked that same question by basically everyone who’s ever come into contact with him. The engineers and producers do tend to have a better idea of what signal paths and channels are being used, than musicians who are generally focussing more on their performance and songs when it comes to the actual recording.

I’m sure at several points over the years he would have looked at recall sheets for all kinds of reasons. I’m not sure the band members would care enough to need to track down engineers or recall sheets etc. He can easily say he doesn’t quite remember rather than being specific about it too. It does seem as though someone is muddling up a IIC+ and III but if the people who played and recorded the album can’t get the story straight then I don’t know why we all care so much. There was likely multiple rigs set up at any one point with guitars being routed all over the place.

I think basically everything else in the chain is going to affect the tone more than the difference in how a IIC+ and III can be set up. Given how close they can be dialled in in the first place, the cab, micing (particularly with all the phasing going on), rack gear, EQ, amp DI, layering are all going to have way more effect.

So yeah. I’m not saying I think it’s one way or the other, but I do think Bob’s take on it is as valid as anyone else’s.

 

[VESmedic]

Can we argue about something else? I think the Diezel Herbert sucks balls. Couldn't cut through in a band situation worth a shit when multiple other amps I had access to could just fine. Literally had the first one in Canada in 2003 or so. My friend's C+ ate it alive, shit it out, then Larry ate the shit and gave birth to an amp that smokes both the C+ and Herbert. True story!

BTW why are you on here on a Friday night, loser? Miss me that much?

I agree with you about the Herbert live, but who cares if it doesn’t cut through at your shitty, local band guy, bar gigs? the Herbert is very much a recording amp. If you bought a Herbert to play live, you’re an idiot. It’s like buying a Ferrari to go mudding.

 

[Tone Monster]

I’m not disputing what James says, just saying what Bob says shouldn’t be discarded. Sure, it’s 30 years later, but it’s not like it’s been at the back of Bob’s mind and suddenly someone is asking him 30 years later. It’s probably been 30 years straight of being asked that same question by basically everyone who’s ever come into contact with him. The engineers and producers do tend to have a better idea of what signal paths and channels are being used, than musicians who are generally focussing more on their performance and songs when it comes to the actual recording.

I’m sure at several points over the years he would have looked at recall sheets for all kinds of reasons. I’m not sure the band members would care enough to need to track down engineers or recall sheets etc. He can easily say he doesn’t quite remember rather than being specific about it too. It does seem as though someone is muddling up a IIC+ and III but if the people who played and recorded the album can’t get the story straight then I don’t know why we all care so much. There was likely multiple rigs set up at any one point with guitars being routed all over the place.

I think basically everything else in the chain is going to affect the tone more than the difference in how a IIC+ and III can be set up. Given how close they can be dialled in in the first place, the cab, micing (particularly with all the phasing going on), rack gear, EQ, amp DI, layering are all going to have way more effect.

So yeah. I’m not saying I think it’s one way or the other, but I do think Bob’s take on it is as valid as anyone else’s.

Nobody knows for sure of course. I just know when I hear Bob speak these days you can tell he’s lost a step (or two). There is a frailty quality in his voice that you hear in people that are aging. He also forgets other details from other bands and recordings, I.e. the vintage 30 thingy. The IIC++ Images are EVERYWHERE and I’ve never seen a III pic around Metallica. Again, it doesn’t matter too much but it’s fun to talk about. With the studio gear they had they could’ve made a III sound great.

 

[Racerxrated]

Nobody knows for sure of course. I just know when I hear Bob speak these days you can tell he’s lost a step (or two). There is a frailty quality in his voice that you hear in people that are aging. He also forgets other details from other bands and recordings, I.e. the vintage 30 thingy. The IIC++ Images are EVERYWHERE and I’ve never seen a III pic around Metallica. Again, it doesn’t matter too much but it’s fun to talk about. With the studio gear they had they could’ve made a III sound great.

Yep. Bob is a legend and listening to his interview was fun. He struggled to 'try and remember' which speakers were used; it's not hard to believe he might 'misremember' a thing or two.
If one wants 'that' tone, a Mark III can certainly get there. In a much harsher manner (IMO) than a C+, but the tone is there. I also thought it was funny when he talked about Sykes being the best player he's ever recorded on guitar; one take and he's done. Vs Kirk; Bob did a 'no comment'.

Kirk's place in Metal history is solid and legendary. I think it's cool that he's like most players who some days are on, and some other days not so much.

 

[anomaly]

But that last paragraph is 100 percent EXACTLY my point….. the amp BY ITSELF, has literally no credibility, other than dream theater. It’s notoriety is not backed up AT ALL by its credits on records. That’s been my point since day one: MARSHALL power amps… MARSHALL cabinets…the amp is so phenomenal, yet No one used it on its own…. I’m just sayin, I think it’s hillarious. Same thing with the SLO…. I don’t think these amps sound bad AT ALL, I just simply think people praise them for absolutely no other reason other than “METALLICA BRO”, and so somehow to these you tubers it’s the greatest heavy amp of all time… why? I have no idea…. Based on what? I have no clue. That’s my point here. I’m sure all these c+ cRybabies will come in and say fuck you I love the amp that’s all that matters; and that’s exactly 100 percent true. But rig talkers are not the norm of guitar players.

Yes the IIC+ was used on it's own on Master Of Puppets. They only slaved into a Marshall for some lead stuff according to Flemming.

Personally I think the amp's rarity has lead it to not being used to widely by many pros, but if you were to combine all of the IIb, IIC+, III and IV users because they all have a very similar tone to them and are in the same line of amps, the list would be fair size, you got:

Sykes (III coliseum)
Metallica (IIC+ & IVa)
Dream Theater (IIC+ & IVb)
Toto (IIC+)
Gun's N Roses (Izzy III's)
Faith No More (Jim Martin III's & IVa)
Chevelle (IVb)
Lamb Of God (IVb)
Sevendust (IVb)
Neurosis (IV)
Anthrax (III's?)
Myles Kennedy (IV)
David Bowie (IV)
The Offspring (IV)
NOFX (IV)
Fates Warning (IV)
Bush (IV)
Pennywise (IV)
and many more

Then there are is studio pre-amp and quad, which has the IIC+ circuit built in:
There's many users of the studio preamp but the biggest names I can think of are Nirvana and AC/DC (Angus around '89 - '91).