Should I be upset? VIDEOS ADDED

[Mr. Willy]

I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.

Don’t have time to read this in full, and you make some valid points. But some some points off the top of my head:

1. I never expected a “perfect” “as new” guitar back. It’s 45 years old. That’s impossible.
2. He has offered VERY LITTLE in communication. From DAY ONE. And especially once I became unhappy, which was when the final bill came. When it became clear to me that he was not going to respond anymore or offer a refund, this is a course of action that is available, hence why I took it.
3. I may not be a professional luthier now, but I do have formal training in luthiery, albeit the many years ago. I disagree with your notion that I should’ve reached out to other luthiers fist before starting this thread.

I'm sorry you didn't have time to read my post.

I guess the tldr; version is that:

1) When you set up the job, there was an ambiguous requirement to "make it look as good as it can". The explanation in his final text seems completely plausible, why you can see grain pattern in some places, and why he didn't fill all the indents. Other guitars on his site show paint imperfections, whether it was intentional relicing or not is unknown. Your guitar's finish appears to be in line with the quality shown on his site.

2) I would chalk up the majority of the disconnect on work quality to poor communication. Addressing the small divots and wood grain pattern may have required a different finishing technique which was not historically accurate and could have compromised the tone.

3) Any chance you had of finding an equitable resolution went up in smoke when you started this thread, thats just how people "are".

I had a luthier screw up a plek job about a decade ago. He pleked it with so much relief that the truss rod was out of its adjustment range. (He probably did this to save his bits.) I was pissed that he didn't follow directions, I had a lengthy argument over phone and emails. I was able to cite how the work didn't meet original requirements spelled out in the email work order (to not add any relief to neck), and he very grudgingly refunded the complete cost. I never threatened to go public or take it online. I did say I would reverse charge if needed.

IOW, the work on your guitar is "meh" IMO, but it still sounds and plays great, and the work seems consistent with what he shows on his site. You were not very particular on the front side of the communication, or at least did not document your requirements in an email. You burned up any good will by starting this thread. The work he did does not violate the original work order so I suspect getting a charge reversal will be difficult.

I’m at work. Don’t have time for lengthy debate.

When did I ever say it sounded good? I haven’t even plugged it in yet. Haven’t had the stomach to.

I had a lengthy conversation with him on the phone once he knew I had a major problem with the bill. It was difficult just to get him on the phone.

I would be absolutely INSANE to send this back to him to fix, even if I hadn’t started this thread. All I want out of him at this point is AT LEAST SOME of my money back.

 

[Mr. Willy]

I will say too that you are making some of the same arguments he is. Which is a tad suspicious. Just sayin.

 

[Goat]

I will say too that you are making some of the same arguments he is. Which is a tad suspicious. Just sayin.

Especilly since he joined RT yesterday.

 

[SpiderWars]

Glaser has a PLEK, if I was getting it re-radiused I'd think a PLEK would be ideal.

 

[void pig]

I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

I'm a long time lurker and your thread motivated me to register so I could share my thoughts on what went wrong. I had a superstrat style guitar completely refinished about 20 years ago. It was the first nice guitar I owned and had alot of sentimental value, although not as much cash value as your LP. I had done some work on it previously, had tinkered with it, altered the finish. It had been leveled many times, needed a refret, and the maple board was scarred and marked up by thousands of hours of playing.

Like you, I wasn't completely happy with the outcome. But I understood that based on the condition I gave it to him, it wouldn't come back as new. (And I only spent 600 on a refret and refinish, which I thought was a fair deal, probably close to 1000 in today's dollars, and very close to what I paid for the guitar new.) I had removed the thick poly factory finish with the expectation that I'd refinish it myself, but I didn't have the tools or skill to do a good job, so I gave the unfinished project to him to finish.

My objective here is to help moderate your emotions so you can find a middle ground and enjoy your guitar again.

I want to be supportive, and I agree the work isn't the best (or at least wouldn't meet my expectations if I was expecting a "new" looking guitar), but there are a few things that stand out in your correspondence.

The thing that you kept saying is that you wanted the guitar "to look as good as it can". And in his invoice he referred to it as "aged" look. So its clear to me that in the original dialogue, there was an acknowledgement that it wouldn't be perfect. And it seems that he took on the job with that understanding (and perhaps used that as justification to cut some corners). IMO, if you wanted it to look like a mint frampton guitar, you should have used dialogue to that effect. That may have altered his quote, or it may have given him pause to even do the work at all.

I'm saying this not to inflame, but reading the correspondence, it sounds to me like on the front side of the transaction, you were laid back and said "make it look as good as it can (I know its in bad shape)" and on the back side of the transaction you got very particular about it. And I'm not saying that you're wrong to do this, because the quote nearly doubled.

What I can relay about my own refinished guitar is that when it came back, it did not sound as good as it did before (or at least not the same). I had removed the thick factory poly finish and when they refinished it, the guitar had a "lighter/warmer" tone. Additionally, some of the wood grain indentations were showing through the new finish (like an old Fender might), so it didn't have that new/perfect "spaceship" look like many superstrats.

It may be that the finishing approach that he took on your guitar was historically accurate, the exact finishing technique used on new LPs of that era, but because the wood had been exposed, as he said, there ended up being imperfections in the final finish. In his mind this probably fell under "make it look as good as it can".

The alternative to this approach, to fill every imperfection, spray it with primer, sand, spray, sand, spray, etc could have made the guitar look "perfect", but would have been a different technique that was not historically accurate and that (more importantly) would have altered the tone of your instrument. And it might also have added additional labor.

The other thing that stands out to me, (that in hindsight I think you will agree would have been a better way to handle this), was that you went to the forums for feedback on the work instead of contacting other luthiers to get their take. It may be that another luthier could have looked at this and confirmed that it is bad work, or at least explained why it came out the way it did, based on the original requirements. Armed with that information, you would be better prepared to argue your case with the original luthier or credit card company.

The most important thing is for you to enjoy your guitar again. I would point out that if it still has the same great sound, that is something in itself; refinishing can definitely change the sound. If it came back "perfect" he may have had to use a different technique, sprayed more coats, and that could have changed the tone and even made it look "incorrect" in other ways.

Regarding the file marks on the board, I didn't see anything in the original invoice about re-radiusing the neck. I wasn't able to match up the photos you provided to see if there was an A/B difference proving that he was responsible for file marks. I will just have to believe you that they weren't there before. If they are just tool marks from crowning/leveling and if it bothers you, I think you could get them worked out for a minimal fee with another luthier. I don't think there is any chance of getting the original guy to sand them out at this point.

Good luck, I hope you can get to a place where you enjoy the guitar again.

Don’t have time to read this in full, and you make some valid points. But some some points off the top of my head:

1. I never expected a “perfect” “as new” guitar back. It’s 45 years old. That’s impossible.
2. He has offered VERY LITTLE in communication. From DAY ONE. And especially once I became unhappy, which was when the final bill came. When it became clear to me that he was not going to respond anymore or offer a refund, this is a course of action that is available, hence why I took it.
3. I may not be a professional luthier now, but I do have formal training in luthiery, albeit the many years ago. I disagree with your notion that I should’ve reached out to other luthiers fist before starting this thread.

I'm sorry you didn't have time to read my post.

I guess the tldr; version is that:

1) When you set up the job, there was an ambiguous requirement to "make it look as good as it can". The explanation in his final text seems completely plausible, why you can see grain pattern in some places, and why he didn't fill all the indents. Other guitars on his site show paint imperfections, whether it was intentional relicing or not is unknown. Your guitar's finish appears to be in line with the quality shown on his site.

2) I would chalk up the majority of the disconnect on work quality to poor communication. Addressing the small divots and wood grain pattern may have required a different finishing technique which was not historically accurate and could have compromised the tone.

3) Any chance you had of finding an equitable resolution went up in smoke when you started this thread, thats just how people "are".

I had a luthier screw up a plek job about a decade ago. He pleked it with so much relief that the truss rod was out of its adjustment range. (He probably did this to save his bits.) I was pissed that he didn't follow directions, I had a lengthy argument over phone and emails. I was able to cite how the work didn't meet original requirements spelled out in the email work order (to not add any relief to neck), and he very grudgingly refunded the complete cost. I never threatened to go public or take it online. I did say I would reverse charge if needed.

IOW, the work on your guitar is "meh" IMO, but it still sounds and plays great, and the work seems consistent with what he shows on his site. You were not very particular on the front side of the communication, or at least did not document your requirements in an email. You burned up any good will by starting this thread. The work he did does not violate the original work order so I suspect getting a charge reversal will be difficult.

I’m at work. Don’t have time for a lengthy debate. You do make legitimate points.

When did I ever say it sounded good? I haven’t even plugged it in yet. Haven’t had the stomach to.

I had a lengthy conversation with him on the phone once he knew I had a major problem with the bill. It was difficult just to get him on the phone.

I would be absolutely INSANE to send this back to him to fix, even if I hadn’t started this thread. All I want out of him at this point is AT LEAST SOME of my money back.

Honestly, I think it looks pretty damn good when its not under a microscope. And even better, you have a classic LP with jumbo frets!

It still looks like a vintage instrument; if he finished it the way you desired, it might not look vintage anymore.

I don't know how much these kind of services normally cost on a vintage LP, but I'm guessing there are guys out there charging more than 1900 for this kind of work.

I would just take a deep breath, talk to some other luthiers to see how much a restore of the quality you expect will cost, show them his explanation, and see if they think this is "horrible work" like most people in the thread do.

 

[void pig]

I will say too that you are making some of the same arguments he is. Which is a tad suspicious. Just sayin.

Especilly since he joined RT yesterday.

I joined today, not yesterday!

I am not affiliated in any way. My goal was to try to help the OP "accept" the situation, maybe take some responsibility for the miscommunication, so that he can enjoy his guitar.

If another luthier comes back and tells him "yeah, I could have done all that work and given you a factory finish for 1500", then I agree he should be pissed off. I'd like to hear what professionals have to say. This job honestly looks in line with what hes showing on his site.

 

[harddriver]

I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

You need to reverse the charges immediately. Or go to your bank and claw back the money. This guy’s a thief.

Yep............. what Racerxrated says...... get your C/C company to claw back what you can from this guy, I would go for half back or at the very least get the $ 800 upcharge he added to the bill at the end of the job that he did not notify you that original quote was not going to be honored, that is dishonest and I think you have a case. A car repair shop must inform the customer if there is any considerable change to the expected quote, prior to proceeding with the job.

As Racer stated this guy is a crook at this point, I'm sorry you have to deal with all this.

I find it highly suspect that VOID PIG shows up to argue the luthiers side of things. HELLO MURKAT!!!! PLEASE defend your subpar work, I would like to see you try. $1900 for that kind of work is indefensible.

You would be foolish at this point to even consider sending your guitar back to this guy, you may never see your guitar again. Claw back your money and send it to a well established shop that already has a good reputation and some ethics. This guy won't be in business long doing this to people.

 

[void pig]

I should also add...if you look at some of the pics of the back, those little white spots...it’s trash or something in the finish. It’s literally imbedded in the finish.

You need to reverse the charges immediately. Or go to your bank and claw back the money. This guy’s a thief.

Yep............. what Racerxrated says...... get your C/C company to claw back what you can from this guy, I would go for half back or at the very least get the $ 800 upcharge he added to the bill at the end of the job that he did not notify you that original quote was not going to be honored, that is dishonest and I think you have a case. A car repair shop must inform the customer if there is any considerable change to the expected quote, prior to proceeding with the job.

As Racer stated this guy is a crook at this point, I'm sorry you have to deal with all this.

I find it highly suspect that VOID PIG shows up to argue the luthiers side of things. HELLO MURKAT!!!! PLEASE defend your subpar work, I would like to see you try. $1900 for that kind of work is indefensible.

I'm not affiliated in any way. I haven't had a vintage LP refinished so I don't know what it costs.

I agree the upcharge is dubious. If he can get that portion back from the CC he should. Thats what I would do.

 

[Mr. Willy]

void pig - you make some valid points. I do need to calm down. I’m trying to, believe me. I hear very you’re saying. I’m not unreasonable. $1900. Nineteen hundred dollars. You think that work is worth that??
Especially when he guesstimated 900-1000. Asked for 700 up front while NEVER acknowledging that that was IN ADDITION to the guesstimate price he quoted. You seem to be placing any discrepancies in communication on my shoulders. As the “professional” luthier doing work that I commissioned him for, any and all questions, no matter how small, should have been directed to me from him. If you disagree with that notion, then you and I have a very different idea of quality business practices.

 

[Mr. Willy]

Another thing - I may not be a “professional luthier” but one thing I’m not is a fool. Another thing I’m not is a sucker. I know quality workmanship when I see it on guitars. And this ain’t it!

 

[paulyc]

CC dispute. Now.

 

[void pig]

void pig - you make some valid points. I do need to calm down. I’m trying to, believe me. I hear very you’re saying. I’m not unreasonable. $1900. Nineteen hundred dollars. You think that work is worth that??
Especially when he guesstimated 900-1000. Asked for 700 up front while NEVER acknowledging that that was IN ADDITION to the guesstimate price he quoted. You seem to be placing any discrepancies in communication on my shoulders. As the “professional” luthier doing work that I commissioned him for, any and all questions, no matter how small, should have been directed to me from him. If you disagree with that notion, then you and I have a very different idea of quality business practices.

I think luthiers generally overcharge, but what do I know?

Here is what I see as far as pricing compared to what I've seen. A LP refret on a vintage paul, removing the nubs, will cost 300-400 for a top job. Add more for the change to jumbo because it will require resetting or recutting the nut. So I'm just guessing, converting a vintage LP to jumbos, recutting the nut alone will cost 400-500. That fee probably includes setup cost.

All new hardware on the build.. I didn't check the invoice, but that is another 150-200. And then wiring. That will cost 150-200 for a full rewire. (I think they way overcharge for this, I always solder myself, but I get that doing a clean job will take a few hours and at 60/hr...)

So even before the refinish, cost is going to be up around 750. Add another 75 for shipping and insurance back. That is 825 without any refinishing work.

Now is the refinishing job worth 1000? If it came out the way you wanted, I suspect you would have no problem paying that.

That's why I suggest talking to another luthier to see how much a refin would cost. IDK what is involved in filling all the grain and divots in a way that doesnt expand or contract, and that still has vintage appeal. He made an executive decision and may have thought that this is what you wanted. I have seen vintage guitars with those paint imperfections that happened over time. When people refinish furniture, they usually try to retain these imperfections and show as much character as possible.

So I really don't know what is expected for this kind of job or how much it would cost, which is why I suggest talking to other luthiers.

 

[splatter]

Where wa at his done ? I want to avoid them

 

[braintheory]

FWIW, rig-talk is ultimately a pretty small audience that probably wouldn’t have thought to use to this guy anyway. You may wanna post about this somewhere on like the gear page or maybe Instagram so that a bigger audience (and some more likely to go to him) will know it’s best to use someone else

Interestingly I used to own a Jim Wagner pickup made for him (the Murkat model). It was really just an F-Spaced Fillmore with rows of screw to adjust. Luckily I liked some of the other models a bit better like the Darkbursts or Iron Man

 

[Mr. Willy]

I don’t wanna ruin this guy. I just want him to make it right. I want some of money back. Not even all. Just some. He’s a nice man. I just want him to make it right.

 

[RandyVanMartini]

With a whopping 27 posts on this site, seems like he doesn't have much invested as far as outing him......I'd just do the charge back already and be done with it. F him!

 

[UltraGary]

I think the guilty 'luthier' re-invented himself here as another person on this very thread and often says things "I don't know, but....." and "Well I don't know much about that, but...", which is a great indicator of who you're dealing with here. I hope you're just making a CC claim with this loser.

 

[UltraGary]

Where wa at his done ? I want to avoid them

He was exposed on previous page of this thread:

quote="Mr. Willy"]I didn’t want to do this, but I’m left with no choice.

NTL Guitar in Nashville did this work.

Website: http://www.ntlguitar.com/

He is a member here. Handle is murkat. He responded to me back when I started a thread about luthiers in the Nashville area.

His restoration pics sold me. Especially the ones of the Frampton LPC.[/quote]

 

[void pig]

I am not the luthier! I don't know him, I'm not affiliated. I try to do as much of my own work as possible.

I just thought the guitar is much better than those microscopic pics show. The reason it may not have turned out so well as op took the original finish off.

I registered because I did the same exact thing years ago..took off a factory finish which compromised the refinish. It was just too coincidental. I wanted him to know someone else had done this too.

Should the luthier fill the wood with epoxy before painting? I don't even know how to address something like that. He needs to talk to another luthier.

 

[Mr. Willy]

These are microscopic? Yes, it looks better than before. $1900, man. $1900. Don’t think that’s sunk in for you.

I took the finish off by sanding it off. No chemicals were ever used. He never even asked me how I took the finish off. I did that about 6 years ago. I didn’t play the guitar even that much because it needed too much work. Never sweated on it. How does the wood become compromised? I would understand if it had been in a flood or mold or something like that, but it was just bare wood. I mean, if it was just the bare wood then how did they even get the original finish on it to begin with? This argument doesn’t make sense to me. Not even saying it’s wrong, but I just don’t agree.