Speakers are weird (G12M and V30s)

[cardinal]

So I have a US-market 2204 with 6550s and a few UK-spec 2204s with EL34s. My main amp has been that 6550 head with a Marshall 1960AV. I love that amp with that cab. Oddly, I rather dislike that 6550 head with G12Ms. I find it way too bright and the low end just isn't right. Oddly, I find the AV cab much smoother and warmer.

But man the EL34 heads do not like that AV cab. They sound all wrong. Too much bass but also too much fizz or something. And a very distinct cocked-wah midrange peak. But with a G12M cab, it's perfection. Thick midrange, bass is just right, and the treble is in the "right" place (biting but not fizzy and not piercing).

Just seems so weird to me that the AV cab is warmer with the 6550 amp but too bright with the EL34 amps, yet it's the opposite with the G12M cab (which is too bright with the 6550 amp but just right with the EL34 amps). I would have thought that one cab would be consistently brighter with whatever is plugged into it.

 

[Nigel]

The tubes' impedance curve versus the primary impedance of the OT meeting the cab's impedance is the main factor most likely. I'm not an amp tech but I'd bet if you mismatched the too bright pair by using the 8 ohm out into the 16 ohm cab it'd probably sound waaaaay better.

 

[cardinal]

The tubes' impedance curve versus the primary impedance of the OT meeting the cab's impedance is the main factor most likely. I'm not an amp tech but I'd bet if you mismatched the too bright pair by using the 8 ohm out into the 16 ohm cab it'd probably sound waaaaay better.

The 6550 head does sound great into a cab with 8-ohm G12Ms. I was shocked at the difference between a cab of 8-ohm G12Ms and 16-ohm G12Ms, both from the early/mid 90s.

Not sure if it's the speakers or the amp's OT or both. But the 8-ohm cab is significantly warmer and less bright with the 6550 head.

 

[Racerxrated]

That mirrors my experience with trying to match up the 1992-later Marshall Vintage cab with ANY Marshall other than a Jubilee. 99% of my Marshalls have been EL34. Too much mid on mids…for me anyway.
But, the exception is the first version 8 ohm Marshall Vintage cab..I have one from 1988 and it’s more like a G12 65 cab than anything resembling V30s to my ear. Fat warm tone. They won’t get too bright like the later versions. I also had a 2551AV Jube cab and they were the same.
Very different than the early 90s and newer Vintages.

 

[cardinal]

That mirrors my experience with trying to match up the 1992-later Marshall Vintage cab with ANY Marshall other than a Jubilee. 99% of my Marshalls have been EL34. Too much mid on mids…for me anyway.
But, the exception is the first version 8 ohm Marshall Vintage cab..I have one from 1988 and it’s more like a G12 65 cab than anything resembling V30s to my ear. Fat warm tone. They won’t get too bright like the later versions. I also had a 2551AV Jube cab and they were the same.
Very different than the early 90s and newer Vintages.

That's pretty cool. I do have a cab with '80s G12-65s and one with '89, 16-ohm V30s. I should pull those out and see how they do. I used the 65s with the 6550 head for a long time but it's been collecting dust since I got the AV cab, which has more bite. I don't think I've ever plugged the EL34 amps into it.

The '89, 16-ohm V30s are an odd speaker cab. Instead of that V30 nasal mid hump, they seem scooped. I've only really used the cab with a 5150 and it was a metal monster because of how scooped out it seemed. Tried it briefly with a Mark III and it was not a good match. The sound just disappeared with the GEQ scooped out. I don't think I've ever plugged one of the 2204s into it.

 

[Racerxrated]

I

That's pretty cool. I do have a cab with '80s G12-65s and one with '89, 16-ohm V30s. I should pull those out and see how they do. I used the 65s with the 6550 head for a long time but it's been collecting dust since I got the AV cab, which has more bite. I don't think I've ever plugged the EL34 amps into it.

The '89, 16-ohm V30s are an odd speaker cab. Instead of that V30 nasal mid hump, they seem scooped. I've only really used the cab with a 5150 and it was a metal monster because of how scooped out it seemed. Tried it briefly with a Mark III and it was not a good match. The sound just disappeared with the GEQ scooped out. I don't think I've ever plugged one of the 2204s into it.

Interesting. The first few years of the Marshall Vintage, I think were 8 ohm? I’ve only seen them in 2 cabs, and Jubilee combos. If you can, compare the 89 cab to your G12 65 cab. My 88 cab reminds me of a darker 1983 G12 65 cab I used to own. My 1979 cab with 65s is brighter by a good margin.

 

[paulyc]

George Lynch prefers 8 OHM speakers going back to Tooth & Nail with those 65 loaded 8 OHM Randall cabs with the RG80 and 100 ESs. I believe he only used the 8 OHM Lynchback Celestions and 8 OHM Fanes when he was using Fanes during his downtuned phase.

 

[NewWorldMan]

I

Interesting. The first few years of the Marshall Vintage, I think were 8 ohm? I’ve only seen them in 2 cabs, and Jubilee combos. If you can, compare the 89 cab to your G12 65 cab. My 88 cab reminds me of a darker 1983 G12 65 cab I used to own. My 1979 cab with 65s is brighter by a good margin.

I’ve never seen a 16 ohm Marshall Vintage prior to late ‘88 or early ‘89. Celestion Vintage 30? Yes, but not Marshall Vintage. Not saying they can’t exist, just that I haven’t seen one.

Those Marshall Vintage (8 ohm) go all the way back to ‘85. The first ones were actually vented. My experience is exactly like yours - those 8 ohm Marshall Vintage up through late ‘88 or so are some of the darkest speakers I’ve ever heard. It’s almost impossible to make the top end sound harsh on them, and they’re even too dark for me with some amps.

I had about 5 quads of them for a long while, but I sold some off to folks looking for them. Still have around 6 (speakers, not quads) that I kept. Very cool, but very different speaker. Compared to the 16 ohm Marshall Vintage from later on, you’d swear they weren’t even the same speaker.

 

[Racerxrated]

I’ve never seen a 16 ohm Marshall Vintage prior to late ‘88 or early ‘89. Celestion Vintage 30? Yes, but not Marshall Vintage. Not saying they can’t exist, just that I haven’t seen one.

Those Marshall Vintage (8 ohm) go all the way back to ‘85. The first ones were actually vented. My experience is exactly like yours - those 8 ohm Marshall Vintage up through late ‘88 or so are some of the darkest speakers I’ve ever heard. It’s almost impossible to make the top end sound harsh on them, and they’re even too dark for me with some amps.

I had about 5 quads of them for a long while, but I sold some off to folks looking for them. Still have around 6 (speakers, not quads) that I kept. Very cool, but very different speaker. Compared to the 16 ohm Marshall Vintage from later on, you’d swear they weren’t even the same speaker.

Agreed. With an 800, or really any Marshall they’re darn near perfect since they offset the bright of the amp. I did compare them to what they were originally patterned after, the original Celestion Vox Blue from 1963…and you can hear the exact same frequency response in the blues(I picked up a pair last summer). The Vox though has this 3D richness to it that the Vintage doesn’t have. But this 88 cab sounds just perfect with any of my Marshalls. Don’t know why they ever changed them to what they are now.

 

[cardinal]

I

Interesting. The first few years of the Marshall Vintage, I think were 8 ohm? I’ve only seen them in 2 cabs, and Jubilee combos. If you can, compare the 89 cab to your G12 65 cab. My 88 cab reminds me of a darker 1983 G12 65 cab I used to own. My 1979 cab with 65s is brighter by a good margin.

Yeah, these are the Celestion T3904 speakers, not the Marshall spec ones.

 

[Racerxrated]

Yeah, these are the Celestion T3904 speakers, not the Marshall spec ones.

I’ve only tried 1991 British V30s; in a Fender Tonemaster cab. Any earlier versions were the 8ohm Marshall Vintage; T3989.

 

[cardinal]

I’ve only tried 1991 British V30s; in a Fender Tonemaster cab. Any earlier versions were the 8ohm Marshall Vintage; T3989.

I have quads of T3904s from '89, '92, and '99. The '89s sound different; I think the others sound the same-ish.

Hard to say with speakers. I have two OS412s from just a few months apart based on speaker codes but they sound different. One is a local road dog and the other is so new looking it still have the hang tags, but the one with the hang tag is warmer and deeper sounding.

I kinda just am trying to give up on chasing unicorn speakers. I'd been trying to just use this '20 1960AV because it can handle a ton of power and is easily replaceable, but it sounds not so good with certain amps yet killer with others.

Ughhhhhh

 

[Racerxrated]

I have quads of T3904s from '89, '92, and '99. The '89s sound different; I think the others sound the same-ish.

Hard to say with speakers. I have two OS412s from just a few months apart based on speaker codes but they sound different. One is a local road dog and the other is so new looking it still have the hang tags, but the one with the hang tag is warmer and deeper sounding.

I kinda just am trying to give up on chasing unicorn speakers. I'd been trying to just use this '20 1960AV because it can handle a ton of power and is easily replaceable, but it sounds not so good with certain amps yet killer with others.

Ughhhhhh

Matching amps with the right speakers is important. I have my V30 cab, 65 cab, vintage GB cab, Mesa C90/EV, and a straight 1968 Sound City with 2 JBL/2 Vox Blue. Between those speakers I shouldn’t have much trouble with any amps I may own in the future.
Something’s gotta work with them.

 

[thegame]

Matching amps with the right speakers is important. I have my V30 cab, 65 cab, vintage GB cab, Mesa C90/EV, and a straight 1968 Sound City with 2 JBL/2 Vox Blue. Between those speakers I shouldn’t have much trouble with any amps I may own in the future.
Something’s gotta work with them.

I've even matched speakers with cabs. Believe it or not, I'm not crazy about the 16 ohm Marshall Vintages in Marshall cabs. That's ok but a bit cardboardy with somewhat flat mids, but it's quite a difference for the better in my Bogner cabs. Much fatter, warmer yet tighter and more textured (somehow the mids sound dirtier, more broken up and sit in a different range) in the Bogner. Conversely, I prefer more bass heavy speakers like G1265s and G1280s in Marshall cabs. Still good in the Bogners but the Marshall cab's cleaner more upfront midrange favored 65s/80's to my ear.

Yes I know it's being beyond anal at that point but I can't rest until I've tried every permutation of every item of gear I own.

 

[Racerxrated]

I've even matched speakers with cabs. Believe it or not, I'm not crazy about the 16 ohm Marshall Vintages in Marshall cabs. That's ok but a bit cardboardy with somewhat flat mids, but it's quite a difference for the better in my Bogner cabs. Much fatter, warmer yet tighter and more textured (somehow the mids sound dirtier, more broken up and sit in a different range) in the Bogner. Conversely, I prefer more bass heavy speakers like G1265s and G1280s in Marshall cabs. Still good in the Bogners but the Marshall cab's cleaner more upfront midrange favored 65s/80's to my ear.

Yes I know it's being beyond anal at that point but I can't rest until I've tried every permutation of every item of gear I own.

Absolutely. I’ve added batting on the back panel, and Re-did the wiring with copper lamp cord more than a few times. Might do it again. The easiest mod to any and all amps? Different speakers. Completely changes things and is easily reversible lol.
I remember trying to force feed my JCM 800 2204 with a Mesa armor plated OS cab. Long ago. Finally got wiser and saw how many guys seem to love the G12 65. Found a cab, amazed at the difference. Sold the Mesa in short order.

 

[psychodave]

Matching amps with the right speakers is important. I have my V30 cab, 65 cab, vintage GB cab, Mesa C90/EV, and a straight 1968 Sound City with 2 JBL/2 Vox Blue. Between those speakers I shouldn’t have much trouble with any amps I may own in the future.
Something’s gotta work with them.

This is a big reason why I have so many 4x12 cabs. Different speakers work for different amps.

 

[cardinal]

I probably don't have nearly as many as you guys, but I have 1960s with '93 16-ohm G12M, '95 8-ohm G12M, '82 G12-65s, '89 Celestion V30s, '92 Celestion V30s, '20 Marshall V30s, and '96 Marshall V30s. A 1960TV with '90 G12M. Crate BV412 with '99 V30s. A slant OS412 and a straight/slant OS412.

OMG when I type that out it's way too many

Oh and a 2x12 with '70s G12-65s and one with '78 G12Ms. Ugh

 

[Scumback Speakers]

This is a big reason why I have so many 4x12 cabs. Different speakers work for different amps.

And that is just the way it is...

 

[Nigel]

I have quads of T3904s from '89, '92, and '99. The '89s sound different; I think the others sound the same-ish.

Hard to say with speakers. I have two OS412s from just a few months apart based on speaker codes but they sound different. One is a local road dog and the other is so new looking it still have the hang tags, but the one with the hang tag is warmer and deeper sounding.

I kinda just am trying to give up on chasing unicorn speakers. I'd been trying to just use this '20 1960AV because it can handle a ton of power and is easily replaceable, but it sounds not so good with certain amps yet killer with others.

Ughhhhhh

What year/month are the two different OS412s?

 

[cardinal]

What year/month are the two different OS412s?

Both are '04 I think. I've had some before ranging from '93 to these. They are terribly inconsistent and I don't understand it.

To two straight-slants I've had sound way better (deeper, warmer) than the true slants I've had, but I have a hard time believing that the different exterior shape makes any difference.