TC Electronic / Fractal Audio Systems (DSP)

[Chupa.Cabra]

For the polite argument of my musical history; As a guitarist, I've owned my Diezel Herbert (12AX7AC5-HG-plus / JJ-KT77), 2-Diezel 4x12 C-V30 rear loaded guitar amp & cabs since 2004 (~16 years). No FX ever intrudes in my signal chain from the output of my guitar to the input of my Herbert. The only FX that I use is the DSP TC Electronic G-Force in my serial loop (post preamp), therefore my signal chain, for the most part is impassive. TC Electronic is well known by experienced professional and consumer musicians to be 99.99% transparent when discussing tone altering coloration from the input signal.

In your free or spare time you might be interested in reading this brief and concise article by "Pete Cornish".

Pete Cornish - The Case Against True Bypass

In addition TC Electronic has been considered (by many musicians) to be the Grandfather of most DSP FX. In contrast to Fractal Audio Systems, this is much more new to the DSP professional and consumer market in comparison to TC Electronic.

To the subject, we as guitarists (at least I) tend to become at times discontented or unsure of our rig(s) and think of the phrase "the grass is always greener on the other side". Although I have been very satisfied with my TC Electronic G-Force and my Diezel rig for many years now (~16 years) I'm experiencing to some degree what I've just stated above.

To be very clear, all the power to the good folks out there that covet their DSP amp modelers, but to the point there will be no modeler that can ever "accurately" mimic and replicate a analogue Diezel rig, particularly a Herbert. No disrespect to the folks using the amp modelers, it's almost like religion, "whatever floats you boat".

So where I'm at is that stage is (TGIAGOTOS) with the Fractal FX8 Mark II Multi-Effects (only) Pedalboard looks very attractive to me. Many years ago when the original Tone Merchants location in Anaheim, CA was the primary outlet for Diezel Amplification, I had briefly owned the original AXE-FX. I was very impressed with its proprietary DSP FX, but I had no use or interest in the amp modelers in any way shape or form competing with the "real deal" Herbert - not possible in my DSP world.

So in the end, I'd be interested to hear from some folks here at RT that have actual real-world experience with the Fractal FX8 Mark II Multi-Effects (only) Pedalboard. The pros and cons as such.

I've attempted to contact Fractal Audio Systems directly through different avenues to no avail other than electronically. It'd be nice to speak to a human being directly (hopefully with an IQ better than 100 - at Fractal Audio Systems support to be clear) to get some dirt on this particular DSP pedalboard.

Thanks in advance if anyone cares to share their personal experience with and about the Fractal FX8 Mark II Multi-Effects (only) Pedalboard.

- CC

 

[crankyrayhanky]

FX8i was amazing. I miss it. I'll liklely get an FX8ii sometime soon.
The delay and reverb are stunning.
The ODs are not 100%, but close enough for me

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

crankyrayhanky, what made you let the FX8 go?

Regarding the OD in the FX8 pedalboard, Herbert covers more than enough OD flavors for my needs. From the Blackface Fender Princeton Reverb, to most '60s, '70s and '80s Marshalls, and most if not all modern hell raisers.

I'm simply looking over the hills and far away curious about the quality of the delays, chorus, phaser, detune, intelligent pitch shifting and some reverb for the early VHI, et cetera.

In the end (I believe) there's only so much density you can squeeze into a 24-bit address space.

I may just try a few more times to contact them at their posted contact: Plaistow, NH 03865 (603) 378-0800.

I've left them a few messages along with a few email inquiries but no response. Possibly they may have a grace period on initial direct new purchases from Fractal on the FX8 DSP. If so then I'll just outright purchase it. Fractal has them advertised for $900 at this time which is a very fair price (if the FX are all that) considering what a G-Force went for back in the day.

Don't know, but I'd love to A/B the FX8 against my G-Force.

Thanks CRH.

- CC

 

[Manxmusicman]

I have previously owned an fx8. Prior to that I had s board made up of strymons for my delay and modulation but I felt like a nice compact multi fx was a good way to go. I loved how flexible the fx8 was from a switching perspective and the sounds of the effects were very good. The delays and reverb were good but not quite as good as the strymons which sounded a bit more natural to my ears. The pitch effects and modulations are very good.

Now to the bits I didn't like and ultimately the reason I sold it and went back to pedals. There's a steep learning curve with this unit and so msny parameters to play with, I easily got lost down the rabbit hole trying to mess with things I really didn't have a clue about. The other annoying thing is that the fx8 runs out of processing power when using complex effects, even something like a reverb with two delays was tripping the cpu, this seems quite a flaw. I also thought the od's while good, involved a lot of tweaking to get them sounding how I wanted, often I'd have to stack od's to get what want and that takes a lot of time to get the right combo. Lastly, I missed the ability to turn a knob or change things on the fly at gigs.

In summary, it's a great unit, it's very good at what it does but there needs to be an investment of time to get the fx8 singing and there are a couple of flaws depending on your use. Hope this helps.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

crankyrayhanky, what made you let the FX8 go?

- CC

Several years ago I had a Kemper. Loved it. Started to have GAS for Two Notes Live and FX8, so sold off the Kemper and got those pieces. Used the fx8 live with a DMoll, EVH 50w, DSL HR, sounded amazing. It does have the shortcoming of not being able to run mulitple delays/verbs without maxing out, but for me I tended to use 1 Delay + 1 verb so I was good.

Then my band started rehearsing at this 2nd floor walkup. FX8 inside of a Gator hard case was getting super heavy to lug around. Flipped the fx8, bought another Kemper with remote (this is like 3 or 4 years later).

each setup has it's + and - but the key one is portability- this Kemper rig is sooooo much lighter and easier to transport. The delay spillovers and morphing 1 patch into another makes studio level transitions possible live. The Reverb kind of sucks (but there's an update coming soon).

All that being said, I miss my fx8. I tried a Helix effects and IDK if I got a bad one but there was an ocean of noise (even with all Helix effects off) added that made it last 2 days before I sent it back. FX8 always sounded amazing. I almost got an FX8ii last week. I'll likely wait until one pops up on the used market and take another dip....though I'd prefer an AX8 v2 or FX8 v3 that is a bit smaller and addresses the current concerns of the FX8. We all know it's coming and will destroy all current FX8 value, lol.

 

[thenine]

I have an FX8 1st version. Its freakin awesome. I use it with all my amps. One of the great things about this kind of setup is you can save banks of patches for whatever you need, including bass. The FX are top notch, everything you need is in there, Boosts, EQ's, reverbs, delays, 2 expression pedal output, I could go on. I use midi to switch channels and modes on my Fortin mod JVM. I do run an outboard Wilson Wah and an outboard tuner off an outboard vol pedal. But everyone has a slightly different way of rigging things. I use 4CM. The distortions are good too IMO so if your main head goes down you can still run into any available clean amp and at least find a tone. Stereo outputs of course too. Grab one!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

As a guy who also have used the G-Force in series in the loop of his amps (did it for years), I can say that the G-Force is really not what I would call transparent. It's not the worst tone sucker out there, but the difference between having it in the signal path vs nothing in the loop, was definitely noticeable.

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

In summary, it's a great unit, it's very good at what it does but there needs to be an investment of time to get the fx8 singing and there are a couple of flaws depending on your use. Hope this helps.

Hey Man . . . thanks for the input, very helpful.

As for the learning curve issue, personally I enjoy learning curves since this implies that I'm learning something (not to come off as patronizing to any degree).

The issue with the processor utilization definitely can be a concern, especially with DSP multi FX processors. With my G-Force and with a fairly dense number (up to seven) of simultaneous FX switched by my "Voodoo Lab Ground Control" and depending on the routing, such as serial, semi-parallel and parallel, there are no issues here with my G-Force. The processor is always waiting for instructions rather than catching up. I never experience any drop-outs in-between user preset patch changes.

I'm not concerned with its OD, because I would never use it. Herbert covers the entire framework that I need in this area.

Regarding this statement "Lastly, I missed the ability to turn a knob or change things on the fly at gigs . . ." that's where the Ground Control shines for my current FX setup.

Thanks again for your input, Man . . .

- CC

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

Yo CRH thanks for the feedback.

Checked out the Kemper(s) but I'm not looking for a guitar amp profiler.

Speaking to the "delay spillovers" you mention; the G-Force and its little brothers the G-Major 1&2 have this very nice feature too. It's described as "FX Mute – Hard/Soft". Hard meaning no "spillover", soft meaning a smooth transition to the preset that you are engaging next. I totally agree, this simple but thoughtful feature is a must have.

Many years ago (probably 20) I had a Lexicon MX300 DSP. The FX were great but the dropouts were completely unacceptable, regardless of how many simultaneous FX you setup. Lexicon finally fixed it, but by that time I became totally into TC Electronic. TC got it right from the get-go.

At this point from the feedback I'm get from you folks, my main concern would be the under powered CPU. Not that I use so many simultaneous FX, but I'd rather have too much overhead than not enough.

As I stated above, I'm hoping that Fractal offers some sort of "reasonable" grace period. A week, two weeks, whatever. I don't need more than 24 hours to make a decision when it comes to FX. If they do offer this then I'll snatch up a new one - I never buy used gear cuz I'm a cork sniffer.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

- CC

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

I have an FX8 1st version. Its freakin awesome.

Grab one!

Yo thenine, you're preaching to the church choir my friend. $900's a drop in the bucket compared to what I dished out for my G-Force many years ago (at that time).

Much appreciated.

- CC

 

[psychodave]

For reasons stated above, I don’t like to use any delay or effects in my original amp signal at all. If I do, I actually like the old Boss SE-50. It’s has very little tone suck, but lots of effects and can be had for $50.

I really prefer to use a wet/dry/wet rig with a Korg DL8000R for my delays. I use a mixer to mix both my wet and dry sound into my poweramp (I use either a HH V800 or Mesa Strategy 400). My wet cabs have a mix of 50/50 my wet and dry signal. I tend to keep my dry signal from my main amp slightly louder than the wet/dry/wet rig.

 

[LP Freak]

If you’re talking live use I’d highly recommend the a FX8. I’ve ran it through my BE50 for years now and have been completely satisfied. As far as the CPU, I’ve never had an issue and I know there was an update some time ago that increased the CPU capacity.

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

psychodave, I haven't used any pedals in my "signal path" for decades. I don't care who manufactures them, they will always alter/color the signal path from the output of any electronic instrument to the input of your amplifier - true bypass(ive) or not. The moment you introduce more than one true bypass device into the I/O signal path, the whole purpose of true bypass is defeated and things get messy with buffering and such. The only device that "intrudes" my I/O signal path is a Dunlop JB95 Joe Bonamassa Wah. I've thoroughly tested 11 Dunlop Wahs out of the 23 that Dunlop currently has to offer to the consumer, and in my humble opinion the JB95 has the most dynamic and consistent sweep for the style of music I play. It also can be switched between true bypass and inline I/O fully active. The JB95 also is the only Wah I've played through that doesn't distort on the clean channel when its pedal is fully forward - this behavior always bugs me with certain Wah pedals.

I won't go into more detail on true bypass because that's where my knowledge ends in regard to the technical mechanics of this technology.

psyhodave, if you find some spare time and are interested in learning more about this subject, check out this article circa 2003 by "Pete Cornish – Case Against True Bypass", that is if you haven't already read this particular article.

All my cables are custom made by "Tony Farinella" who owns and runs the company "Evidence Audio". His cables don't come cheap, but I can attest that they are worth every dime and are the most transparent electronic instrument cable money can buy. I use the "The Lyric HG: right and straight for the guitar I/O and the "Siren Speaker Cable" for both 4x12 cabs.

I have no interest in the W/D/W configuration since the crowd typically couldn't care less or notice the difference. They in general just want to get rocked. It would be more for my own as I say "musical masturbation". But I do agree, the W/D/W setup sure sounds surreal in a studio environment and feels good!

Thanks for the feedback.

- El Guapo

 

[italoop]

I'd keep using real amps and add fx from companies who have truly been THE godfathers of digital fx, even before VLSI DSP chips started to be available in the mid '80s.
One of them is Lexicon. The original stuff... not a copy.
Here are some examples. You can find tons of them on my YouTube channel or on my website:

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

I'd keep using real amps and add fx from companies who have truly been THE godfathers of digital fx, even before VLSI DSP chips started to be available in the mid '80s.
One of them is Lexicon. The original stuff... not a copy.

I hear ya italoop. Based on your avatar, I may guess that you're into digital looping (i.e. Loop Ita) and likely you're a member of Facebook. Let me get this out of the way I DESPISE FACEBOOK (for infinite reasons). If, italoop, I'm wrong about this membership, then my bad (Shit I must be losing my mind) I meant to say, "my mistake". Sorry about that, it will never happen again.

Now to Lexicon, as I stated above my one-time experience with lexicon was lackluster. Meaning CPU drop-outs, but descent FX. They since have corrected this obvious flaw. In the end I'm simply looking for a FX (only) DSP preferably a rack unit that will cover the basics, such as chorus (flange), phasing, delay, reverb, intelligent pitch shifting, detune, et cetera. I'd die for a used TC Electronic 1210 Spatial Expander + Stereo Chorus/Flange. The same TC 1210 that Alex Lifeson uses for more than 2 decades now. BTW, Alex has 2 AXE-FX in his FX rig arsenal which he refers to as "backups ". Alex's main FX are coming out of his four TC G-Forces set with various differentiations.

See here (Rush's Time Machine Specifically at 1m:14s.

You may get the impression that I like Rush. Well, let me expand on this, I FREAKING EFFEN LOVE RUSH!!!

As for Lexicon being the Godfather of modern digital audio FX, this may be true, depending on who you're talking with. However, and technically TC Electronic really stepped DSP FX audio technology up a few notches. If you want to be truly correct, then the real Godfather of the original Pulse-Code Modulation processor (PMC) which evolved into what we now know as the modern day DSP (Digital Signal Processor) for commercial and consumer recording was pioneered in Japan by NHK and Nippon Columbia and their Denon brand, in the 1960s.

In the end I finally spoke to a gentleman with all the technical answers I was interested in at Fractal Audio Systems technical support, his name is "Ean". Ean made the comparison of the FX8 Mark II Multi-Effects Pedalboard (which is all I'm interested in - FX) to the AXE-FX III. Ean stated that the FX in the FX8 Mark II is of higher quality than the FX in the AXE–FX III. This is because the FX8 has none of the "amp/cab" modeling features (only high quality FX) so they have more headroom to work with. Whatever that meant - I didn't ask, I just want the thing to test with against my current FX rig.

Either way, the FX8 Mark II is ordered and on its way to my neck of the woods with a 15 day trial (or grace) period.

It looks like I'm going to need to brush up on my "scenes" now, and dump the notion of having "presets", maybe.

Stay tuned for coming attractions.

- El Guapo

 

[thiswaythatway]

Sure W/D/W setups sound amazing but if you have to go to a band practice once a week or if you only have to setup at on a dark stage after another band and tear down before the next band goes up....well good luck with a W/D/W setup.

 

[italoop]

I'd keep using real amps and add fx from companies who have truly been THE godfathers of digital fx, even before VLSI DSP chips started to be available in the mid '80s.
One of them is Lexicon. The original stuff... not a copy.

I hear ya italoop. Based on your avatar, I may guess that you're into digital looping (i.e. Loop Ita) and likely you're a member of Facebook. Let me get this out of the way I DESPISE FACEBOOK (for infinite reasons). If, italoop, I'm wrong about this membership, then my bad (Shit I must be losing my mind) I meant to say, "my mistake". Sorry about that, it will never happen again.

Now to Lexicon, as I stated above my one-time experience with lexicon was lackluster. Meaning CPU drop-outs, but descent FX. They since have corrected this obvious flaw. In the end I'm simply looking for a FX (only) DSP preferably a rack unit that will cover the basics, such as chorus (flange), phasing, delay, reverb, intelligent pitch shifting, detune, et cetera. I'd die for a used TC Electronic 1210 Spatial Expander + Stereo Chorus/Flange. The same TC 1210 that Alex Lifeson uses for more than 2 decades now. BTW, Alex has 2 AXE-FX in his FX rig arsenal which he refers to as "backups ". Alex's main FX are coming out of his four TC G-Forces set with various differentiations.

See here (Rush's Time Machine Specifically at 1m:14s.

You may get the impression that I like Rush. Well, let me expand on this, I FREAKING EFFEN LOVE RUSH!!!

As for Lexicon being the Godfather of modern digital audio FX, this may be true, depending on who you're talking with. However, and technically TC Electronic really stepped DSP FX audio technology up a few notches. If you want to be truly correct, then the real Godfather of the original Pulse-Code Modulation processor (PMC) which evolved into what we now know as the modern day DSP (Digital Signal Processor) for commercial and consumer recording was pioneered in Japan by NHK and Nippon Columbia and their Denon brand, in the 1960s.

In the end I finally spoke to a gentleman with all the technical answers I was interested in at Fractal Audio Systems technical support, his name is "Ean". Ean made the comparison of the FX8 Mark II Multi-Effects Pedalboard (which is all I'm interested in - FX) to the AXE-FX III. Ean stated that the FX in the FX8 Mark II is of higher quality than the FX in the AXE–FX III. This is because the FX8 has none of the "amp/cab" modeling features (only high quality FX) so they have more headroom to work with. Whatever that meant - I didn't ask, I just want the thing to test with against my current FX rig.

Either way, the FX8 Mark II is ordered and on its way to my neck of the woods with a 15 day trial (or grace) period.

It looks like I'm going to need to brush up on my "scenes" now, and dump the notion of having "presets", maybe.

Stay tuned for coming attractions.

- El Guapo

Not sure why you make this "grand opening" about Facebook...
I am not on it but you should realize probably 70% of western people you interface with... are very likely on it. Does that make them bad?

Yes, the main engineers who later founded Lexicon are unquestionably the very first who put a signal thru an A/D converter, as a side_project to a pure digital delay unit (not audio) made for heart surgery monitoring.
When they found out audio could be used too... Gotham Audio was born and their very first digital audio delay, the T-80, was commercialized... for a ton of money and 80 ms. maxdelay time.
It was 1971! Slightly earlier than that, in 1970 Eventide Clockworks put out the very first digital delay product, the studio grade DDL1745.
But DSP technology is an '80s thing... a time TC Electronic didn't use any of that; the first TC DSP based product came much later. It was February 1996 when their first DSP unit came out, the M2000.
By that time, many other companies had been using DSP technology for at least 10/13 years already, Lexicon, Eventide, Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc... even having custom engineered and made DSPs for their units.

PCM technology isn't a DSP processing technology. You do not make effects with it. PCM is simply an audio conversion method, different from others.
You should be more accurate in your google search... You may want to find out how early FX giants moved from array processors to VLSI chips. It's a very interesting subject.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here eager to know more about your statement:
"technically TC Electronic really stepped DSP FX audio technology up a few notches"
What do you *technically* mean? Why is that?
In this day and age when companies are switching from DSPs to general purpose processors....

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

Not sure why you make this "grand opening" about Facebook...
I am not on it but you should realize probably 70% of western people you interface with... are very likely on it. Does that make them bad?

Yes, the main engineers who later founded Lexicon are unquestionably the very first who put a signal thru an A/D converter . . .

This statement you make directly above (main engineers) is the only thing you and I may agree on. The other stuff you mention in this post is soapbox, in my humble opinion.

Correction, this OP was/is not a grand opening, it was more aligned with fact finding.

italoop, if I've "OFFENDED" you in any way, then please except my apology.

To your Facebook (?), not at all. The members of FB are (no question) the loneliest cyber creatures on this small rock we all must share together. Boasting day in and night about their imaginary cyber friends. Do I hear acute cyber-psychosis?

Nuff said. italoop, I wish you all the virtue and best success with your Lexicon gear.

- El Guapo (a.k.a. Las Pulgas)

 

[italoop]

Not sure why you make this "grand opening" about Facebook...
I am not on it but you should realize probably 70% of western people you interface with... are very likely on it. Does that make them bad?

Yes, the main engineers who later founded Lexicon are unquestionably the very first who put a signal thru an A/D converter . . .

This statement you make directly above (main engineers) is the only thing you and I may agree on. The other stuff you mention in this post is soapbox, in my humble opinion.

Correction, this OP was/is not a grand opening, it was more aligned with fact finding.

italoop, if I've "OFFENDED" you in any way, then please except my apology.

To your Facebook (?), not at all. The members of FB are (no question) the loneliest cyber creatures on this small rock we all must share together. Boasting day in and night about their imaginary cyber friends. Do I hear acute cyber-psychosis?

Nuff said. italoop, I wish you all the virtue and best success with your Lexicon gear.

- El Guapo (a.k.a. Las Pulgas)

Soapbox? Ah!
You don't know history and judge.
Well... stay as you are, with ideas you can't even explain... and quite a lot of wrong "knowledge".

good luck.

 

[Chupa.Cabra]

Oh little sweetheart "it', bless your precious sole.

It's only rock 'n' roll, but we like it.